Tenant/Lodger Insurance Dilemma

rtho782

It doesn't matter if you are "legally" defined as a tenant, a lodger, or a squirrel.

Insurance companies are private companies, free to offer insurance (or not offer it) to whoever they like, and define their criteria however they want. They don't have to insure you.

For a similar example, with the new Help To Buy ISAs, the government defines you as a First time buyer only if you do not and have never held any interest whatsoever in any property or land anywhere in the world. If you have, you're not a FTB.

Meanwhile, mortgage providers often class you as a FTB if you've not owned a property in 3 years.

Neither is wrong, but you won't get the H2B bonus by shouting that the mortgage company say you are a FTB, you also won't get the insurance company to give you insurance because legally you are a tenant.

In this situation, you may well be uninsurable.

jbainbridge

On her living abroad - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/paying-tax-on-rent-to-landlords-abroad

Jhoney_2

If she considers you tenants, why don't you put a lock on your door in the interim? That would stop her opening windows etc.

She calls you tenants - so that it seems formal for whatever her reasons and then treats you like lodgers by coming/going and assigning random people to stay in there with you - which a LL couldn't dream of doing.

The law on this is clear, it's the situation and understanding of it that is opaque.

Once you sort that out, you should have no trouble obtaining insurance likeeverybody else.

marksoton

Dear lord.

Just sort this mess by moving out.

G_M

A further thought, if you wish to put negotiating pressure on the landlord:

She considers you a tenant (rightly or wrongly). If you are a tenant, then by law she should have done ALL the following

* placed any deposit you paid in a registered scheme (+ PI) within 30 days (Housing Act 2004 )
* given you, in writing, an address in Eng/Wales for serving notices on her (if not, stop paying rent) (Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 )
* given you evidence that HMRC permit her to receive your rent gross (if not, deduct 20% tax from all rent you pay) (HMRC )
* given you an annual gas certificate (if there is gas) (
HSE )
* given you an EPC (EPC )
* registered property as HMO (if relevant) with local council (HMOs)

All done?

Dragon90

G_M - Thank you! However the local council states an HMO must have three or more storeys which we don't have and be occupied by five or more people in two or more households so it doesn't fall under that criteria here. This is definitely her primary UK residence, she has no other homes or property in this country. As for endsleigh possessions, that's basically exactly what we want but they won't accept us because we're not students - they're one of the many companies we got in touch with separately from the broker to try and work something out. Re your last post - we don't have gas, but I have not seen an EPC or HMRC permit. She's back in a week and I'll be bringing those things up with her as it's possible they are available she just hasn't considered that we need them or is still in the process of arranging them. We didn't need to pay a deposit on moving in (it wasn't requested from either of us) and this is her only address.

And regardless of what Guest101 and Jhoney are saying on our status vs her status, rtho782 is right - the insurance companies word on this is final and as far as they are concerned I and my friend are lodgers and therefore they won't insure us.

jbainbridge - Thanks for this also, opens up a whole new kettle of fish we weren't aware of but I'll look into it.

Jhoney - We can't make any alterations to the house without her express permission and she must be here while they are made. We currently don't even have a lock on the bathroom door because she has to "think about it". When it suits her we are tenants - ie her mortgage - and when it suits her we are lodgers - when she wants to tell us what we can and can't put in the fridge or do with our laundry. While we'd love to move out as marksoton suggests, unfortunately we blew last week's lottery win have no funds for alternative accommodation at twice the price! Moving out of London is not an option either, we're already on the outskirts and leaving would mean giving up jobs.

Lots of you have raised some great points and I'll be sure to bring them up with her once she's back. As I said, she can be incredibly difficult if you don't go along with what she wants and she veers between oversharing information and being quite cagey about things she thinks we don't need to know (even when we do). Hopefully with the two of us to put these things to her we'll make more progress in getting things done the right way than one of us would alone. I'll give an update on what the insurance broker comes back with when I speak to him again. Thanks again.

marksoton

I wouldn't care if it were my 3rd cousin by virtue of a goldfish.

Move out and remove yourself from it. You're never going to win here.

Guest101

Dragon90 wrote: »

G_M - Thank you! However the local council states an HMO must have three or more storeys which we don't have and be occupied by five or more people in two or more households so it doesn't fall under that criteria here. This is definitely her primary UK residence, she has no other homes or property in this country. As for endsleigh possessions, that's basically exactly what we want but they won't accept us because we're not students - they're one of the many companies we got in touch with separately from the broker to try and work something out. Re your last post - we don't have gas, but I have not seen an EPC or HMRC permit. She's back in a week and I'll be bringing those things up with her as it's possible they are available she just hasn't considered that we need them or is still in the process of arranging them. We didn't need to pay a deposit on moving in (it wasn't requested from either of us) and this is her only address.

And regardless of what Guest101 and Jhoney are saying on our status vs her status, rtho782 is right - the insurance companies word on this is final and as far as they are concerned I and my friend are lodgers and therefore they won't insure us.

jbainbridge - Thanks for this also, opens up a whole new kettle of fish we weren't aware of but I'll look into it.

Jhoney - We can't make any alterations to the house without her express permission and she must be here while they are made. We currently don't even have a lock on the bathroom door because she has to "think about it". When it suits her we are tenants - ie her mortgage - and when it suits her we are lodgers - when she wants to tell us what we can and can't put in the fridge or do with our laundry. While we'd love to move out as marksoton suggests, unfortunately we blew last week's lottery win have no funds for alternative accommodation at twice the price! Moving out of London is not an option either, we're already on the outskirts and leaving would mean giving up jobs.

Lots of you have raised some great points and I'll be sure to bring them up with her once she's back. As I said, she can be incredibly difficult if you don't go along with what she wants and she veers between oversharing information and being quite cagey about things she thinks we don't need to know (even when we do). Hopefully with the two of us to put these things to her we'll make more progress in getting things done the right way than one of us would alone. I'll give an update on what the insurance broker comes back with when I speak to him again. Thanks again.

Sometimes you can lead a horse to water....

Dragon90

marksoton - family has nothing to do with it, if I could afford to move, I'd move out tomorrow but I can't so I'm stuck here and have to find a way to deal with the situation.

guest101 - yes, we know your opinion, if you can't do anything but be rude to me because I won't bow down and worship you for it please just stop commenting because I don't have the time or patience to deal with a superiority complex. I can't change the minds of the insurance companies by just telling them they're wrong over and over, this is the situation I'm in having given them all of the facts I've given you and the decision they've come to is we're not eligible for tenant's insurance in its standard form.

Guest101

Dragon90 wrote: »

marksoton - family has nothing to do with it, if I could afford to move, I'd move out tomorrow but I can't so I'm stuck here and have to find a way to deal with the situation.

guest101 - yes, we know your opinion, if you can't do anything but be rude to me because I won't bow down and worship you for it please just stop commenting because I don't have the time or patience to deal with a superiority complex. I can't change the minds of the insurance companies by just telling them they're wrong over and over, this is the situation I'm in having given them all of the facts I've given you and the decision they've come to is we're not eligible for tenant's insurance in its standard form.

Yes let's not worry about potentially owing thousands in tax, rather worry about insurance...