Legal Charge

Miroslav

G_M wrote: »

Nearly, bu (I think) no quite!
I assume mother and brother 2 have also received similar letters?

Have the 4 of them actually sat down and discussed all this? Considered all the implications? Given that (it appears) sister understands so little, I would guess not.

Surely that is the first thing to do, before getting a solicitor to prepare the Charge?

Has a loan agreement be discussed? Drawn up? Have the terms been discussed?

and critically, have the 3 of them discussed this objectively (without brother 1 present), ad then taken their own legal advice.......?

I would assume so. Mother and Brother 2 live in the same town as Brother 1, sister lives in another town around 150 miles away. They don't have much contact, maybe once every year/18 months other than a text to say Happy Birthday.

Nothing has been discussed. She received a text about a week ago saying forms would be coming soon and she could get around £47,500 for selling the house. Nothing was mentioned about it not being sold or legal charges or anything. She understood the text to mean the house is being sold someone time soon.

She knows nothing other than that text and the letter she received today which now states about Brother 1 wanting the house and the other 3 to be in on this legal charge thing.

Mother has mental health problems and is in her late 70's at best, probably 80's now, Brother 2 is just a normal bloke like Brother 1.

I am worried that they are thinking of themselves rather than the sister and the possible implications. It's very probable that they have no idea this will affect her benefits as I don't think they've ever been on benefits.

trevormax

Miroslav wrote: »

Mother has mental health problems and is in her late 70's at best, probably 80's now, Brother 2 is just a normal bloke like Brother 1.

I'm no expert but this may cause problems if mother needs to go in to a care home.

Might it be looked upon as deprivation of assets for mother to loan out this money with little prospect of her ever receiving it in her life time since brother 1 is likely to outlive mother?

In fact, I would say it is a bit cheeky for brother 1 to expect everyone to basically give up their claim of this inheritance until some unknown time way off in the future when brother 1 either dies or decides to leave the house allowing it to be sold. On top of that, if family members are putting a guilt trip on sister to get her to agree with this plan, then sister needs to re-evaluate her relationship with them as they do not have sisters best interests in mind.

This seems to be a bit of a minefield and sister should think long and hard about all of the possible pitfalls before she makes a decision and signs away potentially £47k

G_M

Miroslav wrote: »

.....
Nothing was mentioned about it not being sold or legal charges or anything. She understood the text to mean the house is being sold someone time soon.

She knows nothing other than that text and the letter she received today which now states about Brother 1 wanting the house and the other 3 to be in on this legal charge thing.

So sister
1) thought the property was being sold and she was getting £47,500
2) has not discussed giving up her £47,500 with mother or brother 2
3) does not understand the Charge, or how/when she'll get her money
4) has not discussed with solicitor
5) does not understand the implications on her benefits

Mother has mental health problems and is in her late 70's at best, probably 80's now, Brother 2 is just a normal bloke like Brother 1.

And mother
1) has mental health problems? :eek:
2) does she have legal 'mental capacity'?
3) has she had sensible objective advice?
4) does she understand what she's giving up?
5) does she understand 'Deprivation of assets'?

this scheme becomes more crazy with each post you provide!

sister needs to

* talk to mother and brother 2 - ideally face to face
* get legal advice
* NOT SIGN ANYTHING

And in my opinion, as an objective, disinterested stranger with only partial information, sister should also be insisting the house is sold and she is given her inheritance.

Who is the Executer of the will?

(note - one way or another she's inheriting, and this will affect her benefits. Whether she gets cash, or a Charge on the property, makes no difference.. She will no longer be in poverty, so will no longer need state support.)

note - just re-read the thread. You don't actually say it's an inheritance. Who has been the owner and has that owner died?

You say "the mother kept the house running (reason unknown to me)." So the house belongs/belonged to mother? And mother is one of the 4?

More explanation needed!

[Deleted User]

Personally, I do think she should refuse to sign. The benefits implications being the main reason, the other reason is that when the house is sold some time in the future what happens if the house does not raise the expected amount?

Far better to sell, then they all know what they are dealing with. The brother who wants to remain gets a sizeable deposit if he wants to buy a house (if he's not on benefits, presumably this is an option).

If the house is unmortgageable, the estimated value could be wrong anyway. The brother who wants to buy is putting himself and the rest of the family in a very difficult position. Your friend, unfortunately, is probably in a position of damage reduction (emotional and financial) which is rather sad.

Rather than going to the CAB, I suspect she'd be better off going to a solicitor. The problem is this is costly and he can only give her various options, not guarantees as to what will happen. I do know that families can accrue very expensive legal bills in situations like this where agreement is difficult.

Miroslav

trevormax wrote: »

I'm no expert but this may cause problems if mother needs to go in to a care home.

Might it be looked upon as deprivation of assets for mother to loan out this money with little prospect of her ever receiving it in her life time since brother 1 is likely to outlive mother?

In fact, I would say it is a bit cheeky for brother 1 to expect everyone to basically give up their claim of this inheritance until some unknown time way off in the future when brother 1 either dies or decides to leave the house allowing it to be sold. On top of that, if family members are putting a guilt trip on sister to get her to agree with this plan, then sister needs to re-evaluate her relationship with them as they do not have sisters best interests in mind.

This seems to be a bit of a minefield and sister should think long and hard about all of the possible pitfalls before she makes a decision and signs away potentially £47k

She's currently in one of those housing places where elderly people go and live independent but have alarms if they need help. No staff on site.

They've not put a guilt trip on but it does appear they have told her different via text than what the solicitors letter says - they didn't tell her the money wouldn't be hers for potentially years.

I will make sure she gets some advice and not sign anything straight away.

G_M wrote: »

And mother
1) has mental health problems? :eek:
2) does she have legal 'mental capacity'?
3) has she had sensible objective advice?
4) does she understand what she's giving up?
5) does she understand 'Deprivation of assets'?

this scheme becomes more crazy with each post you provide!

sister needs to

* talk to mother and brother 2 - ideally face to face
* get legal advice
* NOT SIGN ANYTHING

And in my opinion, as an objective, disinterested stranger with only partial information, sister should also be insisting the house is sold and she is given her inheritance.

Who is the Executer of the will?

(note - one way or another she's inheriting, and this will affect her benefits. Whether she gets cash, or a Charge on the property, makes no difference.. She will no longer be in poverty, so will no longer need state support.)

note - just re-read the thread. You don't actually say it's an inheritance. Who has been the owner and has that owner died?

You say "the mother kept the house running (reason unknown to me)." So the house belongs/belonged to mother? And mother is one of the 4?

More explanation needed!

1 - Yes, she was sectioned many years ago (maybe 20-25) and now lives in housing (see reply to Trevor Max above).

2 - Don't know - not seen her in 20 years. Sister (her daughter) and her don't speak.

3 - Probably not.

4 - When her husband (sister's father) died she moved out. Her mental state told her that he was haunting her and she left. I was surprised they didn't sell sooner considering the mother was still, I assume, paying the Council Tax and other rates on the house.

5 - I doubt it.

Sister won't talk to Mother, they really don't get on. Brother's won't meet face to face as it's "too far away". Sister won't go there.

Sounds like she needs to try and get the house sold. She doesn't mind losing benefits, if she gets the house money. It would be a bit silly to acccept this arrangement and then lose out of her benefits as she'll still need to live.

Ok - Mother and Father owned house. Father died a few years ago and left house to Mother. When Mother died or decided to sell, the profit had to be split between the 4 people mentioned. Mother moved out but kept house - nobody lived there though. I think occasionally the brothers stayed there when they were single.

Mother has now decided to sell (I assume it's the mother or it could be brothers wanting some quick cash) and money from sale must be split 4 ways.

First she heard of sale was earlier in week via text - Papers on way, sign them and you'll get £47,500 (didn't see exact text but this is how sister relayed it to me).

Papers arrive today with the legal charge thing.

I come on here as Google was not helping me - i'm glad I did!

Miroslav

deannatrois wrote: »

Personally, I do think she should refuse to sign. The benefits implications being the main reason, the other reason is that when the house is sold some time in the future what happens if the house does not raise the expected amount?

Far better to sell, then they all know what they are dealing with. The brother who wants to remain gets a sizeable deposit if he wants to buy a house (if he's not on benefits, presumably this is an option).

If the house is unmortgageable, the estimated value could be wrong anyway. The brother who wants to buy is putting himself and the rest of the family in a very difficult position. Your friend, unfortunately, is probably in a position of damage reduction (emotional and financial) which is rather sad.

Rather than going to the CAB, I suspect she'd be better off going to a solicitor. The problem is this is costly and he can only give her various options, not guarantees as to what will happen. I do know that families can accrue very expensive legal bills in situations like this where agreement is difficult.

It does appear she needs to refuse to sign. She'd lose her benefits, which would be fine if she had the house money, but she doesn't.

Friend doesn't know what's hit her. She's easily confused because of her own mental health issues. She'll read it as £47,500 if you sign this.

She won't be able to afford a solicitor. I'm going to have to see CAB with her first and then take it from there.

G_M

I think you need to tell us, word for word, what "this legal charge thing" is. And what the soliitor's letter says.

I find it hard to believe that she can be told the house is being sold and she'll inherit £47,500 one week, and then get asked to sign something completely different a week later.

Might this not be to do with an existing Charge on the property? Perhaps related to the fact that mother 's 'ownership' is conditional (ie till death or sale).......

What we are dealing with here is incomplete or misunderstood information.

Sister has received documents she does not understand. Sister talks to friend (thus information gets lost/missed/garbled). Friend posts resume on internet.....

Strangers try to interpret and respond......

Garbage in = garbage out!

Miroslav

G_M wrote: »

I think you need to tell us, word for word, what "this legal charge thing" is. And what the soliitor's letter says.

I find it hard to believe that she can be told the house is being sold and she'll inherit £47,500 one week, and then get asked to sign something completely different a week later.

Might this not be to do with an existing Charge on the property? Perhaps related to the fact that mother 's 'ownership' is conditional (ie till death or sale).......

What we are dealing with here is incomplete or misunderstood information.

Sister has received documents she does not understand. Sister talks to friend (thus information gets lost/missed/garbled). Friend posts resume on internet.....

Strangers try to interpret and respond......

Garbage in = garbage out!

I was going to say I will post the letter shortly, i've convinced her to pop around and she will be here soon and i'll post the letter, minus real names.

Miroslav

Dear Sister

Re: Transfer and charge of (address)

As you will be aware I have been instructed by Brother 1 and wife in relation to the transfer of (address) I have been advised that due to the poor condition of the property Brother 1 and wife are unable to obtain a mortgage to "buy out" the share of yourself (sister), Brother 2 and your mum. It has been agreed however; that the property will be transferred into Brother 1 and wife's name with a legal charge in your favour being registered simultaneously. The charge will be for £142,500 which represents a 25% share for the three of you in the sum of £47,500 each. If this is incorrect please let me know.

In order to effect the instructions above I have drafted the Transfer and Legal charge. I enclose these for your information. As I am instructed by Brother 1 and wife I am unable to offer you any legal advice on these documents. I would therefore strongly recommend that you seek independent legal advice before signing the documents. However; if you do not want to do this I also enclose a Waiver form confirming that you are happy to proceed without obtaining any legal advice.

The two documents will require your signature having your signature witnessed by someone independent and unrelated who should also add their name and address in the space provided.

Please note that it is a requirement of the Land Registry that I am in possession of ID for all parties to this transaction. I will therefore require you to call into one of our offices with two forms of ID so that we may certify it or alternatively you can go along to the Post Office who offer the same service for a small fee.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Signed

--

Then forms for her to sign - CH1 and TR1

[Deleted User]

I think it's a bit naive of the person and his wife who want to continue to live in the property for the foreseeable future, presumably rent and mortgage free. While the other 3 inheritors could end up waiting rest of their lives before they see their inheritance.