NCP ticket bought 3 mins after notice issued - cough up? Ignore? Disinherit son??

Running_Hare

Ooh, I could kill him! Back in March (26th), my stupid student son parked in a NCP in town (in MY car - yes, he'd had permission and he is legal) but had no cash on him and (he tells me) had to go to a hole-in-the-wall to draw out some cash, then stop off at a shop on the way back to get some rattling change for the meter. This meant it was some minutes later, after parking, that he actually purchased a ticket; some 16 minutes later, according to the Parking Charge Notice which had been issued in the meantime. I should think, in reality, it must have been more like 20 (if not a darn sight longer, but ok, benefit of doubt), as apparently, the Car Park Attendant first noticed there was no ticket (as stated on the PCN) at 14:12; the PCN was issued at 14:25 and the time on the ticket bought by my son was 14:28. So, fair play, it was pretty lenient of the CPA to give him a whole 13 minutes to show up with a ticket.
I hadn't properly read the ticket and the PCN until today, when I received a Notice to Keeper (actually it arrived on Friday the 13th, I've only just had time to read it) as I was smugly imagining I was in a position of strength and could ignore it or, at least, take my time in addressing it, as, of course, my boy had a valid ticket, didn't he? When I looked at the photographic evidence online, it was clear there was no visible ticket on any window; well, there wouldn't be, would there, as it turned out he hadn't bought the ticket until 3 minutes later. I suspect he'd even seen the CPA in the act of sticking the notice on the car and had bought the ticket in a panic at what I'd say; at least it's gratifying to know I strike that much terror into his idiot heart.
Anyway, so, am I bang to rights? Should I just cough up? Advise gratefully received and foolishness humbly acknowledged.

I do still have the ticket, btw.

bod1467

As soon as I see a wall of text I click through to the next thread.

Quentin

You need to read up on what to do about dealing with a NTK in the newbies faq thread at the top of the forum before starting a thread if you then need help.

Coupon-mad

Running_Hare wrote: »

Ooh, I could kill him! Back in March (26th), my stupid student son parked in a NCP in town (in MY car - yes, he'd had permission and he is legal) but had no cash on him and (he tells me) had to go to a hole-in-the-wall to draw out some cash, then stop off at a shop on the way back to get some rattling change for the meter. This meant it was some minutes later, after parking, that he actually purchased a ticket; some 16 minutes later, according to the Parking Charge Notice which had been issued in the meantime. I should think, in reality, it must have been more like 20 (if not a darn sight longer, but ok, benefit of doubt), as apparently, the Car Park Attendant first noticed there was no ticket (as stated on the PCN) at 14:12; the PCN was issued at 14:25 and the time on the ticket bought by my son was 14:28. So, fair play, it was pretty lenient of the CPA to give him a whole 13 minutes to show up with a ticket.
I hadn't properly read the ticket and the PCN until today, when I received a Notice to Keeper (actually it arrived on Friday the 13th, I've only just had time to read it) as I was smugly imagining I was in a position of strength and could ignore it or, at least, take my time in addressing it, as, of course, my boy had a valid ticket, didn't he? When I looked at the photographic evidence online, it was clear there was no visible ticket on any window; well, there wouldn't be, would there, as it turned out he hadn't bought the ticket until 3 minutes later. I suspect he'd even seen the CPA in the act of sticking the notice on the car and had bought the ticket in a panic at what I'd say; at least it's gratifying to know I strike that much terror into his idiot heart.
Anyway, so, am I bang to rights? Should I just cough up? Advise gratefully received and foolishness humbly acknowledged.

I do still have the ticket, btw.

The keeper appeals, not the driver, as per the NEWBIES thread. NCP will give up at POPLA stage when they see a typical MSE POPLA appeal from a registered keeper pointing out why they cannot be held liable, etc.

This isn't about what your son did or didn't do - not something for HIM to appeal; at this stage it must be you and is best from you anyway as you weren't driving and NCP can't hold you liable in law.

Easy enough to fight so follow the process in the NEWBIES FAQS thread. All explained there, including POPLA.

Running_Hare

Thank you, Coupon-Mad, for your response; I did read the above mentioned Newbies faq texts but I was finding all the acronyms and terms, with which I am unfamiliar, rather overwhelming and was hoping, obviously vainly, for something a little simpler. All the reading on the internet is somewhat confusing, some articles say ignore, some say the opposite.
Can I just ask this: Are you saying that I, as the keeper but not the driver, can argue that I cannot be held liable? After all, there was no ticket. What could I argue? I gather POPLA is something you have to be referred to by the PCN issuer?

System

I gather POPLA is something you have to be referred to by the PCN issuer?

Yes you need to appeal first. NTK over on PPP
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=106061

Redx

Running_Hare wrote: »

Thank you, Coupon-Mad, for your response; I did read the above mentioned Newbies faq texts but I was finding all the acronyms and terms, with which I am unfamiliar, rather overwhelming and was hoping, obviously vainly, for something a little simpler.

All the reading on the internet is somewhat confusing, some articles say ignore, some say the opposite.

Can I just ask this:

Are you saying that I, as the keeper but not the driver, can argue that I cannot be held liable?

After all, there was no ticket.

What could I argue?

I gather POPLA is something you have to be referred to by the PCN issuer?

acronyms are explained in post #2 of that NEWBIES sticky thread

since 2012, for england and wales , the advice is consistent

APPEAL the parking invoice to the parking company (PPC)

POFA2012 (a new law) changed the advice from IGNORE to APPEAL (its the debt collectors you continue to ignore)

if this is england or wales, they can try to hold the keeper liable under POFA2012, but , they have to adhere to the rules that POFA2012 laid down , any failures on their part means the keeper is not deemed liable and in any case the keeper does not have to name the driver (and should not)

I believe CM thinks NCP fail POFA2012 and so they will fail to hold the RK liable (you)

no windscreen ticket is irrelevant as they will be using ANPR and payment machines that check the details (or lack of details) backed up by these photographs

the BPA blue text appeal in that newbies thread is used for NCP and THAT is all the initial arguments

if this is refused they will issue a code for POPLA (google POPLA) and this will be used with a gamut of legal arguments to try to win at popla, in which case they will probably fold when they see those legal arguments weighted against them

as mentioned earlier, this is no longer about your son or what a driver did or didnt do, its a game you must enter and play out, with help from here

in your replies, please use the NEW LINE (return) key more in order to space out paragraphs like I have done, I too find it hard to read a great wall of text and you could lose valuable advice if people ignore you for such a simple problem and simple solution

good luck

ps:- the BPA CoP allows possibly 10 minutes grace to buy a ticket (to abide by the parking rules) and over 10 minutes to leave the car park

the fact that he bought a ticket and paid is a good thing, it shows intention to pay and not to defraud , so I am sure if it went to court the judge would look favourably on it (whereas POPLA wont)

better legal arguments will win this at POPLA for you (not your son as it all falls on you as RK now) - read through recent popla appeal examples to see what those arguments are, which include the following

NO LOCUS STANDII
NO CONTRACT
POOR SIGNAGE THAT FAILS THE BPA COP
NTK FAILURES
POFA2012 FAILURES

to name just a few

Coupon-mad

Running_Hare wrote: »

Can I just ask this: Are you saying that I, as the keeper but not the driver, can argue that I cannot be held liable? After all, there was no ticket.

Yes. But for now just send the blue text appeal in the NEWBIES thread, which gets a POPLA code for you. NOT YOUR SON.

What could I argue?

(Part of POPLA appeal stage, not yet!) that a keeper cannot be liable under the POFA because NCP do not use the right wording as mentioned already in your pepipoo thread, where they mention the statutory requirements of para 8 of Schedule 4 of the POFA:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=106061

And (ALWAYS at POPLA stage) that NCP do not have landowner authority AND (ALWAYS) that the £100 'charge' is hidden in wordy small print on a sign not seen by the driver and £100 was not shown on any clear, readable signage beside the P&D machine either. So - although the tariff was communicated - no contract to pay £100 was known nor agreed by the driver because the signs fail the 'Beavis test' for clarity.

We'll help! Just get the appellant right now - YOU, not your son!

Running_Hare

Crikey, you all really know your stuff, don't you? I'm in awe. Yes, sorry, I see what bod1467 means now, about the 'wall of text'. Right, ok, I'm on it - right after I look up 'Beavis test'. Thanks again.

Ralph-y

if you had a bucket full of ££££££ to spend on paid for advice ... like solicitors ....

you would not get better

most of the posters have long since been removed from the PPC's xmas card list

if you now want to read more on this murky world of private parking

then have a read of

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/

good luck

and keep at it

Ralph:cool:

Coupon-mad

Running_Hare wrote: »

Crikey, you all really know your stuff, don't you? I'm in awe. Yes, sorry, I see what bod1467 means now, about the 'wall of text'. Right, ok, I'm on it - right after I look up 'Beavis test'. Thanks again.

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/new-popla-staying-cases-to-consider.html

That Blog explains it, as regards the purported clarity of the sign in ParkingEye v Beavis at the Supreme Court in November. NCP signs have thousands of words! I would call it (on here) the 'Beavis test' as regards signage but you won't find that term on Google and you will have to really spell the differences out to POPLA, with photos...but that's for 'round two'!