Settling wall from renovations 3 months on?

Bergarn

We live in an old Victorian house, converted into a number of flats. 3 months ago we knocked out the wall between kitchen and living room in our flat, and as it was a load bearing wall we had an RSJ put in.
Following this, the neighbours upstairs reported that they had some movement in the wall directly above, which the builder (and structural engineer) said was not incredibly surprising as the house is old and the wall would settle on the new beam.
It all got fixed with the builder fixing some things, and separately we got a decorator in (after the neighbour and builder proved to be incompatible - neighbour thought the builder was arrogant and unhelpful and builder thought neighbour was having a go at getting a bunch of stuff done for free) to do the final finishing of their wall. The movement was in the corner where the structural wall we removed meets the outer wall, and apparently the Victorians weren't hot on actually attaching these wall to each other.

Fast forward 3 months later, and the neighbour is saying that there seem to have been some movement in the wall again.
Is this realistic? Would it take 3 months for the wall to settle again, or is he projecting any issues he has to us? How long after the work would it be reasonable to find and blame issues on us?

Is there anyone (structural engineer?) that we could get in to confirm that any movement is/isn't due to our wall but the building being old and Victorian? Or will we just be the perpetual scapegoats for everything?

brightontraveller

Your argument is works carried out correctly structural engineers calculations are correct etc

For neighbours (upstairs) argument is work not carried out correctly / structural engineer’s calculation incorrect?
Down to them to prove it (assuming your have relevant paperwork to prove it all carried out correctly)

You could try contacting structural engineer / builders see what if anything there prepared to do, Make neighbour provide proof your works are/have resulted in damage, If they don’t simply do nothing?
Do works required in there property (Unlikely your builder /engineer are going to admit they have made a !!!! up even if they have)
I see it choose which ever is cheapest solution?

Doozergirl

Settlement is a process, rather than a single act.

Imagine laying your head on a pillow for the evening. While it will give initially to weight of your head, there will be a slower process of it moulding and settling around you after you've relaxed.

You probably fixed it a bit too soon or there's some plaster shrinkage, depending on how much was carried out upstairs.

Furts

Yes settlement could occur, and yes it could also continue. However for this to occur there is a key area you have not touched on. Who inspected and to an extent supervised the building work? In effect who did the final sign off before the works were covered over? What is your position with regards to the Buildings Regulations - was an application made and were inspections undertaken?

From your perspective what did you inspect and witness?

I ponder on the Party Wall Act and think it would have been prudent to involve the neighbour in the inspections. What was done here?

Think of a typical scenario - a ceiling needs propping - were enough props used and were they tight? A removal means knocking hell out of a wall so loosening all sorts of joints and pieces which may subsequently settle. The steel is heavy and may have knocked the wall, and the bearings may not be done properly. Indeed, the steel may not have been fixed in place. Then the key is the packing, shimming and meticulous infill. What was done here?

Hope this helps.

Bergarn

Doozergirl wrote: »

Settlement is a process, rather than a single act.

Imagine laying your head on a pillow for the evening. While it will give initially to weight of your head, there will be a slower process of it moulding and settling around you after you've relaxed.

You probably fixed it a bit too soon or there's some plaster shrinkage, depending on how much was carried out upstairs.

This kind of makes sense, and the natural follow-on question is how long is long enough to wait for settlement? And would a structural engineer be able to tell us that settlement movements is done, or should we just wait indefinitely?

Bergarn

Furts wrote: »

Yes settlement could occur, and yes it could also continue. However for this to occur there is a key area you have not touched on. Who inspected and to an extent supervised the building work? In effect who did the final sign off before the works were covered over? What is your position with regards to the Buildings Regulations - was an application made and were inspections undertaken?

From your perspective what did you inspect and witness?

I ponder on the Party Wall Act and think it would have been prudent to involve the neighbour in the inspections. What was done here?

Think of a typical scenario - a ceiling needs propping - were enough props used and were they tight? A removal means knocking hell out of a wall so loosening all sorts of joints and pieces which may subsequently settle. The steel is heavy and may have knocked the wall, and the bearings may not be done properly. Indeed, the steel may not have been fixed in place. Then the key is the packing, shimming and meticulous infill. What was done here?

Hope this helps.

Yes, we made an application to building regs, and there were two inspections: the first during the work (I wasn't there), and the second after it was done and all plastered.

The neighbour was not involved in the inspections, as no one advised us that it would be a good idea. We did keep all our neighbours in the building updated on progress etc though.

Who would be able to tell if the propping etc was done correctly? I doubt the builder would come back and say "yeah, that was a bit dodgy".
Is this a case for a structural engineer?

teneighty

This talk of "settlement" is rather misleading.

The steel beam will have been designed to allow a certain amount of bend (deflection) when it takes on the weight of the wall. This is taken into account and is usually the critical part of the design so is usually only allowed to be a matter of millimetres.

In most beam installations there will be no cracking or movement and in a worst case scenario only hairline cracking for a couple of weeks after the beam has been installed.

If there is still fresh cracking after 3 month I would suggest the builder has done something wrong. Most common defect is failing to pack the wall properly above the beam to induce the "bend" or they leave a small gap so the wall drops down onto the beam over a period of time sometimes taking several months.

Either you wait for the movement to stop and repair/rebuild the wall above or expose the beam to see what has gone wrong and insert the necessary packing.

Furts

Bergarn wrote: »

Yes, we made an application to building regs, and there were two inspections: the first during the work (I wasn't there), and the second after it was done and all plastered.

The neighbour was not involved in the inspections, as no one advised us that it would be a good idea. We did keep all our neighbours in the building updated on progress etc though.

Who would be able to tell if the propping etc was done correctly? I doubt the builder would come back and say "yeah, that was a bit dodgy".
Is this a case for a structural engineer?

I am with teneighty with my thought process. It is probable that you do not know what was viewed by the Building Inspector, and the visit may not have been at the critical time. Here the onus was on you to request the visit at the critical time.

I suspect the builder has not done a good job, and has covered over matters. Your neighbour may also have sensed this, and hence the complaints.

pinkkaz

Hi there, was wondering what the outcome to this was? We have an almost identical situation to the one you describe (although your neighbour sounds pretty normal compared to ours!)