Your water bill compared to your total gas and electricity bill

losgiganteskid

CashStrapped wrote: »

I have switched 12 times in the last year.

Good God - you've switched 12 times in the last 12 months - you must believe then (on a monthly basis) that there are financial benefits to you every time you switch (unless it has merely become an obsession !) - you have therefore clearly confirmed my statement that having no choice of water suppliers can only point to being locked into the supplier who just happens to cover your area of abode.

If your water supplier decided to increase its tariff by 50% who would you switch to ?

Competition obviously does focus the mind - if I had a high street shop selling a commodity at £3.50 with no local competition then another retailer opens just next door but one selling the identical item for £2.95 - doesn't take a genius to work out where the shoppers will go. You have 12 reasons to agree that !!

CashStrapped

So you are taking the fact that I switch supplier as confirmation that competition within the energy market works and that I benefit from it. It that your argument? That is the unfortunate system we have, I operate within it. It does not mean that true competition actually exists nor is it evidence for it. It also does not mean I like it.

As Cardew pointed out, the water companies are regulated in an entirely different way to the energy market. They would not be allowed to increase prices in such a manner.

With energy deregulation energy prices have risen exponentially compared to inflation since privatisation. Since 2001 prices have risen 10 times above inflation!

Do you not see that the competition is not true competition. It is not real. Each company is not providing a unique commodity. You are not provided with a unique product in a shop. When you switch provider your electricity does not come packaged from somewhere else with extra bells and whistles. It is the same thing from the same or similar source.

You cannot argue that there is more competition and lower prices now than if there had been just one supplier because you have no idea what that single provider would have been charging. You are just guessing that lots of providers mean lower prices. That is just not necessarily true.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/should-the-big-six-be-nationalised-8981112.html

This is a very good article. It argues both sides of the competition within the energy markets.

You seem to suggest that just because you can't switch water provider you must be getting ripped off.

That is just not the case. With good regulation you will be paying the correct amount for the infrastructure where you live. Everyone pays the same amount. One group of people is not getting ripped off for the benefit of another under the disguised notion of competition.

Even with energy suppliers you do not have the same access to the tariffs available in other areas.

To suggest as you do that more companies = more competition = lower prices is just naive. In some sectors that does work. In the energy market, it has major issues that need to be resolved before that is realised.

People have written dissertations on this subject. This argument can go on for pages so there is no point in discussing it further in my mind

Going back you your initial point. All I am saying is that arguing that being able to switch water supplier would automatically mean much cheaper bills in the water market is just not true. It is not a given, as that is not what has happened in the energy market.

We could continue this debate for pages. However, I have said enough on the subject.

One thing you can certainly do to reduce you water bill....is to use less water....good luck!

silverwhistle

These are my rounded annual totals - apart from council tax I pay on receipt of bill.

Single person, metered water, solar panels and woodburner.

Gas £38
Electric £199
Water £188
Council £1000

About £60 on briquettes and a bit of time and sweat and cost of bowsaw blades for wood preparation.

Cardew

losgiganteskid wrote: »

Good God - you've switched 12 times in the last 12 months - you must believe then (on a monthly basis) that there are financial benefits to you every time you switch (unless it has merely become an obsession !) - you have therefore clearly confirmed my statement that having no choice of water suppliers can only point to being locked into the supplier who just happens to cover your area of abode.

If your water supplier decided to increase its tariff by 50% who would you switch to ?

Competition obviously does focus the mind - if I had a high street shop selling a commodity at £3.50 with no local competition then another retailer opens just next door but one selling the identical item for £2.95 - doesn't take a genius to work out where the shoppers will go. You have 12 reasons to agree that !!

Without trying to be rude, did you not read my post 16?
Or if you did read it, did you not understand?

The Regulator(ofwat) determines the targets for each water company and regulates the revenue it can collect and profit it can make; and that is laid down in a 5 year plan.

Therefore in the context of water charges, your analogy of £3.50 and £2.95 makes no sense.

Even for gas and electricity, frequent changes of company are often driven not by competition on charges, but by an 'artificial' system of incentives(e.g. £60) to switch, Much the same type of incentive is used to get people to switch credit cards(99 years @ 0% interest;)) or current accounts(£150 to switch)

singhini

I think people didn't get the sarcasm in my earlier post (#15)


if your paying roughly £30 per month for water then that equates to about £1 per day which is nothing IMHO


£1 per day to get clean running water straight to your door which you can drink straight from the tap is priceless (no need to put a pot on your head and walk 10miles to a watering hole to get dirty water)


in my youth I moaned about everything and tried to take on the establishments. Now in my senior years I try to appreciate what I have and how lucky I am compared to the rest of the 7 billion on this planet

losgiganteskid

CashStrapped wrote: »

To suggest as you do that more companies = more completion = lower prices is just naive.

I believe what you intended to write was "competition" rather than "completion" !!

Naive eh !! - well, when you have been supermarket shopping to any of the main four supermarkets (Tesco,Asda,Morrisons or Sainsburys) you have enjoyed a reduced final bill thanks mainly to the likes of Aldi and Lidl - so tell me seriously that competition doesn't reduce prices.

Additionally, when you are driving to any of those supermarkets you have enjoyed reduced petrol pump prices again due to competition and the glut of oil produced by the oil producing Countries fighting for market share and thanks to Iran who refused to sign up to restrict oil production to jack up prices. QED - Period

Bigphil1474

We pay about £300 a year for water (non-metered), about £300 a year for electricity, and about £600 a year on gas. Council tax is £1,090 a year which I think is far better value than the utilities given the vast range of services the council provide in comparison. I don't use many of the services the council provide, but at least they are there if needed.
My pennies worth - I don't necessarily agree that more companies = more competition = lower prices, but there's more chance of lower prices with some competition rather than a monopoly arrangement. In the end we all have to pay for whatever it is, just a matter of who pays the most. Having said that, the big 6 energy suppliers seem to operate as a cartel so who's to say what we should be paying against what we are actually paying. We're all doomed.

CashStrapped

losgiganteskid wrote: »

I believe what you intended to write was "competition" rather than "completion" !!

I am glad you read the post carefully enough to spot a spelling mistake. If you had the patience to get to the end of that very same paragraph you would have read that I put..

"In some sectors that does work. In the energy market however, it has major issues that need to be resolved before that is realised."

You see I am not arguing with you, I can see both sides to the argument; competition can work in certain sectors. But currently, in the energy sector, without proper reform and regulation it is not.

And, as I said, simply giving the water companies the same de-regulation so we can "switch provider" will not result in cheaper prices. Companies will just increase prices and spread those increases over a range of tariffs giving the illusion of choice.

While, at the moment you do not have a single supplier having a monopoly, you have a cartel, a group of suppliers fixing the prices between them.

Don't get me started on the oil situation. You may not realise it but that reduction is also artificial, again, from another cartel. They have over supplied the market to crush the massive investment going into shale oil/gas exploration in America. This is a long term play by opec. Again, cartel controlled supply. It is nothing to do with Iran as the sanctions imposed on them have only just ended. Their input has just made the over supply slightly worse or better, which ever side of the fence you are on.

So there is no period or full stop to the debate as you have proven nothing with your argument.

lstar337

I am surprised at how low some of your council tax payments are. I only live in a little house and mine seems to be the highest quoted so far.

[Deleted User]

singhini wrote: »

I think people didn't get the sarcasm in my earlier post (#15)


if your paying roughly £30 per month for water then that equates to about £1 per day which is nothing IMHO


£1 per day to get clean running water straight to your door which you can drink straight from the tap is priceless (no need to put a pot on your head and walk 10miles to a watering hole to get dirty water)


in my youth I moaned about everything and tried to take on the establishments. Now in my senior years I try to appreciate what I have and how lucky I am compared to the rest of the 7 billion on this planet

"£1 a day is nothing" maybe so, but if you are working class struggling to make ends meet then this £1 a day here, 50p a day there all adds up at the of the month. I bet these folk walking 10 miles a day with a pot of water on their head don't have all the bills and taxes we have.