Major issues with HSBC, fraud and refusing to refund

justcheckingin

OK, I'll try and keep this brief, I've had a current account for around 12 years with HSBC, no problems to speak of other than once ordering £7,500 in cash weeks in advance, arrived to collect and 4 hours in branch being nothing short of interrogated about why, it was for a car from a friend by the way, but anyway I digress. I recently sold my car for £17,500 and had it paid by the dealer directly via FP into my new Tesco account, they proceeded to freeze my account complete, fast forward many weeks and they unfroze it, froze it again, then unfroze it, then froze it again, their reasoning was "extra security checks" - eventually after much messing around and constant fear of them freezing it again I transferred £10,000 to my HSBC account - went on holiday to the canaries recently and made 1 single transaction whilst there, a cash withdrawal of 200 euros. We left to fly home on the Friday afternoon, on landing in the UK it was almost 9pm and our young un was hungry on the drive back so we called into McDonald's where my card was declined. I immediately logged onto banking and my available balance was 81p, but nothing on my statement view. A call to HSBC revealed 20 transactions of £500 a time to 32 Red/Gibraltar. In the space of 3 hours £10,000 gone. Anyway I obviously reported this, went to police, card never left my wallet or allowed anyone else to use it, etc. A week on just had a letter from HSBC stating they have cancelled and RE issued my card, but I paid £50 to 32 Red in September 2008 and for that reason, they believe it's a merchant I'm aware of and will not be investigating it further or issuing a refund. So because I let my brother deposit £50 to this website 8 years ago I'm set to lose £10,000!? I don't know where to turn now and need advice. I rang 32 red who wouldn't tell me anything as I don't have an account! How ridiculous! And HSBC keep telling me to contact 32 red going forward. I'm being made out here to be a gambling addict when £3,500 of the funds were deposited whilst I was 35,000 ft in the air, I've offered to send HSBC proof of this and they have told me they don't need it! This £10K was our support net ..... any advice where to turn?

Flobberchops

What a malarkey.

My initial feelings are that HSBC should definitely be treating this as a fraud case as despite you having used the website in the past the current payments are nothing to do with you, and the sudden spate of payments is obviously not a yearly subscription or something similar that you authorised and then forgot about. The general rule is that if the customer authorised the payment, even in error (generally through not reading Ts and Cs closely enough) they're culpable. If that's not the case then it's an unauthorised transaction, i.e. fraudulent in nature and the bank has a responsibility to investigate and try to recover the cash.

Even if you did authorise a payment in 2008 your card is certain to have been changed at least once since then - and although an approved payment can be collected several months later (putting paid to the myth that changing your card is enough to sever all ties with a beneficiary) I think 8 years is quite obviously longer than the redemption period. Perhaps HSBC could clarify the exact timescales for you but IIRC its about 6 months.

You mention you used your card once while abroad - sounds like you were the victim of a card cloning scam. Does your travel insurance have any protection against financial loss as a result of theft or fraud?

It's clearly not your responsibility to chase 32 Red. As you point out, they would simply refuse to field questions from an individual who doesn't have an account with them, and at any rate this should be HSBCs job. I think you may need to escalate your complaint with HSBC and if that fails see about getting the financial ombudsman involved. And then switching your account to a more customer-friendly bank, whatever the outcome.

justcheckingin

Thank you flobber chops. I really appreciate you taking your time to reply. A malarkey is an understatement to be honest. This money is my families food, travel, and all the rest. It isn't an exaggeration when I say we have pennies left, as a family for the next 7 days until payday less than £1. No family to help. No friends who can help. No food in house. I've even felt suicidal last couple of days. The state of affairs is dire, the bank accusing me, and I'm 10K down and leaving my family struggling and hungry. I really appreciate you taking the time to offer advice I really need all I can get right now. Thank you again.

grumbler

Flobberchops wrote: »

...sounds like you were the victim of a card cloning scam.

A card doesn't need to be cloned to be used for online deposits to a gambling website. The correct term is 'skimming'.

Does your travel insurance have any protection against financial loss as a result of theft or fraud?

You say this like it's proven that it was on the holiday. Regardless, no way the insurance covers this.

@OP: HSBC are fobbing you off. Complain to the FOS, but stick to the essential facts and get rid of absolutely irrelevant details like the sold car, Tesco etc.
And, as most likely the transactions were without Verified by Visa or Mastercard Securecode, it makes for HSBC easier to get the money back from 32Red.

That said, as they blame you for having an account with 32Red, this indicates (is it a fact?) that the deposits were made to the same account as in 2008. This leaves only two possibilities:

• It was your brother who used the card fraudulently - where had he got the card details? Was the card issued before 2008 or after?
• Your brother's account was hacked. The same question remains about the card details.

Paul_1977

Complain and report to anyone that will listen.

Glad I don't have any significant sums with this bank. Let us know how you get on.

diamonds

Check'in


You have private mail

savingwannabe

I worked in a head office of a bank many years ago. They usually try to fob people off when they cant be bothered. Keep pushing it, they will get the money back. Threaten them with the newspapers and also call your MP for help. It'll be amazing how that will open doors.

bravotango

I do have to agree with Grumbler, how did the fraudsters know that you have had a previous financial relationship/transaction with 32Red? Thus, they were able to debit the money out from the account?

Why did they not try every single other gambling site, or even try other standard retailers? (John Lewis, Apple, etc, etc).

I wonder if this is HSBC's logic, i.e. if the fraudster had tried over retailers, and failed, then surely they would have blocked the card. The fraudster would have had to have known to use your card against the 32Red site, hence the theory of your brothers 32Red account being hacked, or possibly someone using your brothers account believing it was your brothers money they were gambling away at.

diamonds

On thought....Wonder if HSBC carried the transaction over from the old card details on the brothers gambling account if they were stored (and the brother known of the car sale etc...) which would be HSBC's fault if it authorised transactions on a old card like transactions on a old credit card will still post to the account.


You said you have no family to help ? Brother surely can give you £30 for some Aldi/Lidl shopping?


Could also have been skimmed at the ATM abroad (they should standardise ATM's in the EU)



Don't get upset and suicidal...that wont help any of your family, check your private mail, I sent a message

grumbler

bravotango wrote: »

I do have to agree with Grumbler, how did the fraudsters know that you have had a previous financial relationship/transaction with 32Red? Thus, they were able to debit the money out from the account?

We still don't know if it was the same account or a different one. In the latter case it can be just a coincidence.

Why did they not try ... other standard retailers? (John Lewis, Apple, etc, etc).

Such purchases are easier to trace. Fraudsters use gambling sites for laundering stolen money, e.g. by 'chip dumping' in poker.

I wonder if this is HSBC's logic, i.e. if the fraudster had tried over retailers, and failed, then surely they would have blocked the card. The fraudster would have had to have known to use your card against the 32Red site, hence the theory of your brothers 32Red account being hacked, or possibly someone using your brothers account believing it was your brothers money they were gambling away at.

HSBC's logic is that it's not unknown for compulsive gamblers to report fraudulent transactions after depositing money to gambling sites and losing it.

diamonds wrote: »

On thought....Wonder if HSBC carried the transaction over from the old card details on the brothers gambling account if they were stored

Yes, the brother or a hacker can make further deposits from the same card as its details are usually stored in the account. However, after the card stored in an account expires it's impossible to make a deposit without updating the details first.

diamonds

grumbler wrote: »

We still don't know if it was the same account or a different one. In the latter case it can be just a coincidence.
Such purchases are easier to trace. Fraudsters use gambling sites for laundering stolen money, e.g. but 'chip dumping' in pocker.

HSBC's logic is that it's not unknown for compulsive gamblers to report fraudulent transactions after depositing money to gambling sites and losing it.
Yes, the brother or a hacker can make further deposits from the same card as its details are usually stored in the account. However, after the card stored in an account expires it's impossible to make a deposit.

SHOULD be impossible.


Many years ago I sacked a member of staff for fraud, without going into details for security reasons after a certain period 'in date' cards would drop off something.

I have had a emergency call out fee hit my credit card 3 years later - from the old card details and the RBS were absolutely gits because it took me over my limit and would not give me £100 more limit to cover it, and loads of fees.


I think it could be well related to the brother, more chance that than fraud and understand HSBC decision, I dont agree with it unless they can provide proof instead of sending OP on a wild goose chase instead of doing THEIR job.