Parking Eye Leisure World Southampton

Dealer

I've had a PCN as registered keeper of a car parked at Leisure world Southampton on New Year's Eve around 11pm. Occupants of the car were attending an event at a Nightclub on the site and believed parking was free after 6pm, so no ticket was purchased.

The charge relates to the fact the car was purportedly captured leaving the car park at 4:27am the next day.

I have since discovered via research that charging hours resume at 4am every day - this had not been noticed on the night as it was pitch dark so signs were unreadable and it never occurred to anyone that charging hours could start again so early in the morning.

I have also since discovered that Leisure world customers are entitled to 4 hours free parking between 4am and 6pm by entering registration details on a terminal in the complex. I don't know if they have such a terminal in the nightclub, I suspect not and if there is nobody was made aware of it. I'm not even sure if it's possible to get into the complex itself at that time as I'm unfamiliar with the area not having been there before or since.

I do have ticket receipts as proof of custom at the nightclub on that night so wondered if these would satisfy the terms that allow 4 hours free parking for customers of Leisure World? (Given that the parking between 11pm and 4am was not within the charging period anyway).

I had previously ignored all correspondence relating to the matter using the outdated assumption that such PCNs were unenforcable.

I am now at stage where Parking Eye have submitted a County Court claim and having acknowledged the service of claim online I'm drafting a defence.

Does anyone have any advice as having done lots of reading about this car park I'm not really sure where to start?
Thanks

Dealer

Also I wanted to check something regarding the time scales. After acknowledging the county court claim online I believe I get 28 days from date of service to send in my defence. I am hoping this means 28 days from the 5th day after the date on the claim form when service is deemed to be served, rather than 28 days from the actual date on the form which would mean I'm already out of time? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I've read and re-read the Newbies Thread and if someone could point me in the direction of a skeleton defence for a county court claim that would be very useful.

Is there any point in me including in the defence at this stage that occupants of the car were customers on site and so entitled to free parking under the Parking Eye Terms and Conditions, and attaching tickets as evidence of this, or is that a waste of time?
Should I only include legal arguments relating to case law covering the signs and terms not being seen, and so no contract entered into, that it is not relevant land due to local bye-laws, and factors distinguishing it from the Beavis case etc?

Redx

if you have read the NEWBIES sticky thread you would have read the COURT SECTION in post #1 , with links to the process and to threads containing various defences too

you would also have read to check the PARKING PRANKSTERS COURT GUIDE which contains the information you are asking for

and using the forum search box and suitable search words like COURT CLAIM would mean you would find several or a dozen or more recent court threads for UKPC and CEL and probably for PE too which contain drafts of holding (skeleton) defences put together by the OP of each thread with forum help

and yes it is deemed to be 28 days plus 5 days so around 33 days , this was covered only recently in another court thread on here, where people like quentin and CM have mentioned it, plus maybe others too (I know I have read it on here several times so with good research so should you)

yes you should use legal arguments

yes you should mention proof of patronage but provide the proof later on down the line in the detailed defence, please remember this is a holding defence , not the detailed defence

Beavis was a patron of Staples on his site but that didnt stop him losing the case as the judge stated "all he needed was a watch", so they could use that argument against you

locus standii would be a paramount legal point here , so landowner contracts etc, plus poor or incorrect signage too, but stick to 2016 threads , not old ones that predate the Beavis case last November 2015

it may be that POFA2012 would also be argued if this car park is "not relevant land"

I would argue that you have not done enough research on here or pepipoo forums , nor read Pranksters Court Guide either , because if you had you would have known the answers to your queries, like I did even though I dont have a court claim pending

so please do so and use a laptop and not a tablet or a smart phone as this is serious work

Coupon-mad

I do have ticket receipts as proof of custom at the nightclub on that night so wondered if these would satisfy the terms that allow 4 hours free parking for customers of Leisure World?

You could have emailed or written to ParkingEye at any point before you got these court papers, even at Letter before Claim stage, and I suspect they'd have cancelled, no problem. Just like that, scam over. Not as easy now you've ignored a LBC and they've paid a court fee.

Now, they'll no doubt want £60 or so, to withdraw the claim. Email if you want to show them the receipt now and settle (but don't rush to offer anything) if you do, just offer £25 at first and head the email 'without prejudice, save as to costs' with the claim number in the subject line:

enforcement@parkingeye.co.uk

If not, then complain to the Nightclub Manager and ask them to step in and contact PE for you but they'll no doubt still come back and say it will be £60...which you could ask that the Nightclub pays or splits with you as compensation for not telling you the terms of inputting a VRN, to your cost. Up to you, get assertive - or settle - or fight, but don't pay the full amount nor anywhere near 3 figures and don't panic.

Apart from that you must defend this, as you know, until such time as you have it in writing from PE - not the Nightclub or landowner - that the claim is discontinued.

Look through other claim defences by searching the forum for recent ones to see what to say. Search 'court defence statement of truth' which would find some recent ones, albeit CEL and UKPC ones have been more prevalent on here recently.

Is there any point in me including in the defence at this stage that occupants of the car were customers on site and so entitled to free parking under the Parking Eye Terms and Conditions, and attaching tickets as evidence of this, or is that a waste of time?

Yes - include the facts like that in the defence which show yourself as a victim/honest customer not a blagging trespasser the Judge might pre-judge.

No - to attaching evidence, this is not a stage to attach evidence (not till nearer the hearing if you can't get this cancelled sooner by complaints to the venue and landowner). This is a statement of your basic defence points summarised at this stage, just to show the courts you have prospects of successfully defending the claim.

Should I only include legal arguments relating to case law covering the signs and terms not being seen, and so no contract entered into, that it is not relevant land due to local bye-laws and factors distinguishing it from the Beavis case etc?

Yes all of that - good research so far, those are all valid - plus the fact the driver and occupants of the car were genuine customers and the only fault lay with the fact PE's signs were unreadable and the Nightclub failed to alert the customers to any obligation to input a VRN. There, no contract can have been agreed. Even worse, it is believed the landowner contract user manual between PE and the client, typically includes a 'genuine customer exemption' clause to cancel these PCNs if a person shows that they were a customer, yet nowhere on the 'contractual' signs nor in the venue on the front desk, nor in the PCN, does it clearly alert people to that get out clause so consumers have no idea it is an option.

Dealer

OK thanks to you both, I have done a lot of reading both on this site and others, the difficulty I'm having is separating the relevant info for my case from the rest of it, particularly since I am already at the court stage and not the initial appeal or letter before claim which I have missed.
I've read all the cases on here for this particular car park and none are quite the same as mine, most concern parking for the Odeon cinema on site before 6pm and failing to input car reg details on a terminal inside the Leisure World complex.
The unusual situation I have is that parking was free without issue for the majority of the time in question (11pm-4am) the only problem is the period from 4am-4:27am which is when chargeable hours resumed - unbeknownst to people on the night.
Although there are 4 hours free parking for patrons of venues on site during charging hours, I suspect the terminal for entering reg details is not accessible at this time as the main complex is closed. The nightclub officially shut at 4am, (and I don't think there is a reg terminal in there anyway) but being New Year's Eve people continue to file out for a period of time after that collecting coats etc.
There were probably no more than half a dozen cars left in the 800 space car park by the time the car left so I can't see any commercial loss that the landowner would have had.

Also regarding emailing Parking Eye the tickets from the night, the difficulty I'm having is one is a Paypal email receipt: how do I attach that as a file to an email, if I save it it just saves it as an HTML file?
The other receipt is from the nightclub webpage, again the booking page saved as HTML which I don't think will work as an email attachment. I could easily print them out though if it does go to court.

Redx

same advice as post #12 here https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5450824

doesnt really matter as to "what happened", your defence will be based on legal aspects

emails can be FORWARDED with a covering explanation with names and reference numbers

screenshots can be saved , attached and forwarded, or printed, scanned and forwarded , or a picture taken on a digital camera or mobile phone and forwarded

many methods of electronic capture and printing or sending as attachments, you are looking for problems that dont exist

people will keep asking to see your holding defence draft until you post it for critique, so do so and accept any critique, doing nothing iss not an option

this will be the legal points you will be relying on later down the court claim track

Dealer

Ok thanks, can't believe I didn't think of forwarding the email!
Is it enough just to email the receipts, "without predjudice" etc and making an offer to cover admin costs, or would I need to write a lengthy accompanying letter covering Pre-Action Protocol and my intention to fight the claim?

Redx

its too late for Pre-action protocol as this is a live claim which you should have acknowledged online but left the defence box blank for now

the bargepole link and pranksters booklet tell you the steps that are now involved and this should be your focus of attention

those other court claim threads for UKPC and CEL etc should also help you but its imperative that you draft your holding defence , get it approved and submitted to Northampton

then when that is done you could try settling out of court but the problem you face is that this could be seen as an admission of guilt, even though you use the "without prejudice" words

if you were to try this as well, then you need to read other court claims from 2016 where this has been asked and answered already

what I would say is this

there is nothing new that you can ask that hasnt been asked and answered already , meaning that if you have to ask then you have not done enough research. I have read dozens of these court claim threads and am only repeating what I read so I know this forum and pepipoo forums have the answers to everything you ask, if you look

in fact the pranksters court guide used to be specifically aimed at PE although he has made it apply to all claims in recent years

please note , nobody is going to do this for you, so you need to start typing your draft and intentions and then the critique and suggestions will flow back your way in the replies. at the moment its all supposition and no substance

Dealer

OK, I was just going from Coupon Mad's suggestion above to email in the receipts without prejudice as it may stop it from going to court as I have proof of patronage.
I know roughly what I will include in my defence, the concern is posting it on here, someone from Parking Eye will read it.
Parking Prankster's Guide is now out of date according to the Amazon reviews since it does not mention Beavis case etc?
Also one last question; for the 33 day time limit for defence submission, does that go right up to 23:59:59 on the 33rd day or does it have to be submitted earlier than that?

Umkomaas

Also one last question; for the 33 day time limit for defence submission, does that go right up to 23:59:59 on the 33rd day or does it have to be submitted earlier than that?

You might be best phoning the Northampton court to give you precise information like you are asking. They are, apparently, very helpful.

Dealer

Umkomaas wrote: »

You might be best phoning the Northampton court to give you precise information like you are asking. They are, apparently, very helpful.

Just got off the phone to them. 33 day deadline was tomorrow as I thought, but because it's a Saturday I actually get until 4pm on Monday to get the claim form in which is a relief as it will give me longer to prepare. Thanks for the advice.