Premier Park Ltd - Exeter

freester

Hi. I got issued a Parking Charge Notice from Premier Parking Ltd in Exeter.

Unfortunately I’ve only just found this site and have been reading the FAQs. BUT I’ve already appealed via PPS’ website (rejected) and submitted a completely badly prepared appeal via POPLA. I fully expect this appeal to be rejected as I only found this site after. I got sucked into the ‘tell us what happened don’t use a template limit to 3000 words’ on the website so suspect I have prejudiced this and any future appeal or action.

Recently we stayed at the Premier Inn on Southernhay Gardens. Having not visited the location before we were following Sat Nav. I went down the road where there was a sign indicating entrance to the hotel so turned round and parked on the road (on double yellow lines – at the time I assumed an adopted road and so I could unload). I was aware of signs indicating ‘no parking’ without permit in various car parks and off road areas but didn’t appreciate it also applied to the (what I now know is a private) road.

Got the ticket through the post, appealed and got rejected. Immediately rushed an appeal to POPLA (I know, I know) which I fully expect to be not successful. Then I found this website.

So I’m trying to mitigate my previous mistakes and try work out whether I have the appetite to resist the charge further or just pay up the £100 (it went up from £60 as soon as I appealed to POPLA according to communications from them).

I have now revisited the location and taken numerous photos etc. Basically as you go from ‘public’ to private ‘road’ there one sign. ‘Private Land’ + Blue ‘P’ and ‘Parking Restrictions In Place See Additional Signs for Details’. Situated approximately 8 foot high on the left hand side of the road above a 5mph sign. I would guess probably 450x450mm but it was too high up to measure! I genuinely didn’t see this sign as I entered the private road.

As I made a u-turn on the road I saw other signs indicating no parking in obvious car parking areas off the road. Where I was parked there were no signs facing the road, or where I was parked. When I revisited there was one sign set back from the road – facing the road but obscured by a tree from where I had stopped to unload.

So I’ve done a fair bit of reading since. I am just trying to work out whether I’ve got the appetite to vigorously contest this further or whether I’ve done too much damage. I appreciate there is no black or white or definite answer but would like to canvas some opinions from the experts on here.

As I missed the sign on entry I really feel the signage was insufficient. Especially on entry to the private land. The BPA Code of Practice states:

- Signs at the entrance to the parking area should clearly show the type of parking; and if, when and how any payment should be made.
- If one of the following standard wordings applies to your parking area you should use it. If not, you may alter the wording to fit the situation. Words in square brackets may be left out.
- There must be at least one item from Group 1:
[FONT=&quot]- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Pay and display [except/free for blue badge holders] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- [/FONT][FONT=&quot][x minutes’/hour’s/hours’] free parking [for [business name] customers only][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Pay on exit[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Pay [on foot/at machine] when leaving[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Parking for [business name] customers only[/FONT]
- [FONT=&quot]Permit holders only[/FONT]

As I stated above all the entrance said was ‘Private Land’ + Blue ‘P’ and ‘Parking Restrictions In Place See Additional Signs for Details’. So none of the ‘group 1’ wording just ‘Private Land’ and ‘Welcome’ (!!!) which could be less than 60mm (which is what the group 1 lettering should be because it’s going from 30mph adopted road) but too high for me to measure!

Additionally it was placed way too high.

I’ve also had a look at Devon county council GIS Traffic Order service and it’s really borderline whether the signage is in the right place and whether I was parked on private / public land.

Help on here suggests get in touch with the landowner. It looks like this is all part of the Combined Courts (!) and a Land Registry search is suggesting the Secretary of State is owning this land! I suppose I could try and write a letter to the office / general manager of the courts?

Is it too late to pay the £60?

So I’m just trying to gauge whether I am up for this. Further googling has shown Premier Park Ltd have got form for turning up at Court armed with a Solicitor, Barrister and the company MD and defendants losing… Any advice / experience gratefully received so I am educated when my POPLA appeal gets rejected!

Umkomaas

No need to be thinking about paying anything!

So I’m just trying to gauge whether I am up for this. Further googling has shown Premier Park Ltd have got form for turning up at Court armed with a Solicitor, Barrister and the company MD and defendants losing… Any advice / experience gratefully received so I am educated when my POPLA appeal gets rejected!

Where did you get that from? Look here:

http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/Premier_Park.html

Where does it say 'Penalty' on any correspondence you e received?

pappa_golf

umm , is this premier park or premier parking solutions?


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5434867




http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=70463204&postcount=14

freester

Umkomaas wrote: »

No need to be thinking about paying anything!



Where did you get that from? Look here:

Where does it say 'Penalty' on any correspondence you e received?

Thanks for the reassurance! The link was useful. I found a thread on Parking Prankster (sorry haven't been here long enough to post links). I also found a FOI request - again I can't post the link.

As for Penalty. My bad. Parking Charge Notice. Sorry.

umm , is this premier park or premier parking solutions?

Definitely Premier Park Ltd. I've double checked (ignore my post in a previous thread I got mixed up).

Coupon-mad

Court hearings 2015 = none. Court hearings 2016 = one!

I don't recall one even from back in the day. Most unlikely to end up in court. Not notorious, not a big player historically in our memory.

Was your appeal so bad that it didn't even say the signage was unclear? If you just talked about unloading etc and thinking it was public highway you will lose. You cannot add more comments now or after you see their evidence because POPLA will ignore comments that add any new points. They've made that clear recently.

RIGHT...so, I am going to suggest you consider withdrawing your POPLA appeal if it was that bad. Better not to lose at POPLA, better to just be another person who did not appeal to POPLA and is ignoring debt letters. That's not a fight, it's easy. We all did it before POPLA existed in 2012!

Redx

if you think those 2 appeals were bad, post redacted versions of them both on here, no personal info or references, then let us decide if there is anything there that help you win your case at popla and why

once we know what was written, we can see if you put anything of substance that can be carried through past the rebuttal stage, or if its better to fold now before you get an official popla refusal

freester

Thanks for your reply.

Yes I focussed on the fact the signage was insufficient / unclear and not apparent where I unloaded.

I have only just twigged that I get to respond to the evidence pack.

Bearing this in mind do you think still worth withdrawing the POPLA appeal (it was pretty bad, I did put it in my own words, and I may have admitted I was driving to POPLA - but I definitely didn't in the appeal to the Premier Parking Ltd).

PS having gone back to the POPLA website it is really misleading. I feel cheated if it hadn't have said what it said I'd have probably spent longer googling and maybe found this place before I submitted my appeal.

Redx

signage is one of the key issues for popla so until you post your redacted PPC appeal and your redacted POPLA appeal you cannot possibly expect us to advise you on what to do , or not to do

if they dont send an evidence pack, you should win, but assuming they do send an avidence pack, you can rebut it but not add new points , so never say never

I suggest you let us see what you have written, then we can give you better advice

the PPC will have already seen your popla appeal, so already know the contents

and edit post #1 and change the word PENALTY to PARKING

freester

Redx wrote: »

signage is one of the key issues for popla so until you post your redacted PPC appeal and your redacted POPLA appeal you cannot possibly expect us to advise you on what to do , or not to do

Sorry, replies crossed while replying to previous posts.

if they dont send an evidence pack, you should win, but assuming they do send an avidence pack, you can rebut it but not add new points , so never say never

I suggest you let us see what you have written, then we can give you better advice

the PPC will have already seen your popla appeal, so already know the contents

Redx wrote: »

if you think those 2 appeals were bad, post redacted versions of them both on here, no personal info or references, then let us decide if there is anything there that help you win your case at popla and why

once we know what was written, we can see if you put anything of substance that can be carried through past the rebuttal stage, or if its better to fold now before you get an official popla refusal

:mad: I have no copy of the POPLA appeal. Drafted it, submitted using the web page (i.e. in the text box not as an attachment) and I didn't keep the copy. Arrrggghhh. So sorry.

Here is the original appeal to the operator:

Dear Sir / Madam,

Reference Number: xxxx
Vehicle Registration: xxxx
Issued Date: 15 March 2016
Incident Date: 12/03/16
Incident Time: 14:12

I am challenging this parking charge notice on the following grounds.

1) The two images you provided in your PCN clearly show that the vehicle is parked on what is apparently a road, not on any obvious private land or within any obvious car park boundaries.

2) If this part of the road has been adopted by the local authorities then the vehicle is clearly not parked on private property as claimed in your PCN.

3) If this road is private property and part of the car park as you claim – having re-visited this site I conclude:
- there was no signage to indicate the vehicle had entered a car park.
- and certainly any supposed car park 'entrance' was not signed with letters of minimum height of 50mm for adequate driver information whilst entering.
- existing signage (which is apparent in the images in the PCN) is set back from the road and would appear to apply only to the car parks (and land set back from the road) around the courts and not the road itself

4) The vehicle was parked at the location for no longer than 15 minutes whilst being unloaded. The car was occupied at all times and would have been moved if requested. Therefore the large sum demanded amounts to a penalty and / or is not an accurate reflection of any loss suffered so it is not a reasonable charge. Your monetary claim is disproportionate, punitive and unjustifiable in total. It may also be an unfair term and therefore in breach of Schedule 2 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Please provide a breakdown of how your demanded charge is calculated so that I can consider further whether it amounts to a penalty.

5) Any alleged contractual breach can have caused no financial loss whatever to you or to the land owner but if you believe it has please set out the details clearly in your response. If you believe I have committed a trespass please substantiate your consequential actual loss.

Please respond to each individual point that I have stated above.

and edit post #1 and change the word PENALTY to PARKING

Done!

Redx

thanks, are you sure you cannot view it on the popla website and they didnt email you a copy of it ? nothing to indicate what you have written ?

if so please tell us the details on the appeal

if not , check post #34 of this thread where I outlined the usual appeal points and indicate every appeal point that you have touched upon in your popla appeal

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5390160

ie:- if it had info like the ppc appeal above , you seem to have appealed on the following points ?

NO LANDOWNER AUTHORITY
GRACE PERIODS (Clause #13 of the BPA CoP)
POOR or INCORRECT SIGNAGE (including failing the BPA CoP)

and the CRA2015 too

Coupon-mad

That first appeal doesn't look too bad - better than you described - so if they send evidence then you can add to any points you raised to POPLA. On balance if your POPA appeal had that sort of info then I would not withdraw it - but we can't promise a win (can't anyway, these days...seeing as the new Assessors are a law unto themselves as they seem so badly trained on the applicable law).

Why not email POPLA and ask them for a copy of your appeal wording submission. You can add that you feel that the POPLA system and 'guidance' telling you to put it in your own words has let you down and misled you. And you were disadvantaged by having to keep to 2000 characters and thought their email would show you your appeal.

So could they please tell you how to view your appeal or email a copy/paste so you know where you are and can refer to your appeal to compare it to Premier Park's evidence pack, if they contest it.