Retaining Wall onto Council/Public Footpath

Vini123

Our semi detached house was roughly built in 1973 and at the time was the end of the cul de sac. We moved into this property in 2010. The property has a retaining wall to the left as your look at it running, unfortunately, two thirds of the length of the land. This means the wall is roughly 30m. The wall starts at roughly one foot high, and ends up being approximately 4 foot tall. This retaining wall overlooks a public footpath, which runs between our house and the neighbour.

Neighbours to the right of us suggest there were once fields at the end of the cul de sac. However, they have since extended the cul de sac, probably in the early 80s, and there's now another 20 or so houses after ours. Presumably, at this time, the public footpath that runs between us and the neighbours to our left was put into place. It's impossible to say whether or not this retaining wall was built then and by whom.

We recently had a landscaper out for something else and he said that the bricks used for the wall are completely different to those used in/on the house, or any other house on the street. Whether this has any relevance, I have no idea...

We have a copy of a letter that one of the previous owners had sent to the council back in 1999 questioning the condition and ownership of the retaining wall (attached). The council have quite simply denied all responsibility. Whilst this may be the case, I definitely want to investigate and ensure we're not just being fobbed off, as I doubt the cost of repairing/replacing this wall will be cheap.



I'm unsure if the condition of the wall has changed since 1999, I would assume it has, but at what rate/speed I don't know. All I know is that it's got a good bow on it, and some bricks are coming loose. It doesn't look the best, thats for sure.

The title deeds and plans that we have (attached) are very vague, as I assume they mostly are.



Whats bizarre is that we also have fence posts and a chainlink fence INSIDE this wall (picture drawn to try and make this clearer), on our property. Which either suggests a fence was put up later down the line and folks were lazy and just used owned land. OR, this could be the original boundary. In the Google Maps pic, the chainlink fence is covered by a hideous bush (which is no doubt causing the wall some unnecessary stress!)





If you walk down the footpath, neighbours that have a boundary with this path, having fencing or the like that seems to be consistent with the chain link fence.


How/where can I go with this?

Davesnave

Vini123 wrote: »

How/where can I go with this?

You could probably use the local library to check large scale maps of the area, to see if they shed any light on the matter, but although you explain this very well, one has the feeling you're clutching at straws.

You could also check the council's web site for details of the planning for the adjoining estate (if available) and at the Land Registry for any clues within your neighbours' title documents which you may download.

When a council adopts roads and footpaths on an estate, it's typically assumed that the responsibility for maintaining retaining walls alongside these, built by the developer, falls to the owners of the retained land. This is what the council have told you.

Councils have legal departments and considerable funds to defend claims against them, so unless you are very sure of your ground, (pardon the pun) it might be more prudent to bite the bullet and repair the wall yourself, section by section, as required. It won't all need replacing at the same time.

This was the conclusion I came to many years ago in a similar situation. I realised my wall building skills were poor as regards finish, but I was able to make a stronger structure than the original, and as I didn't need to look at it, that was fine. Cost very little, except time.

EDIT:
We aren't specialists here. You might get more responses on this forum which focuses on this sort of issue:

http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=24

cyclonebri1

Had a similar but different issue. Mine was a retaining wall between mine and the neighbours property.
30mtr long and from 2ft to 5ft height difference to next door.
Problem was that although we were on the low side the retaining wall was our boudary and so my responsibility.
Anyway what I wanted to say is that the real issue will be the amount of rubble and collapse you create in removing the old one.

In your case you simply cannot block the footpath unless you apply for a temporary closure order and they don't like issuing them, I know as I'm under the same authority area as that council letterhead.

This mean you are going to trash your garden whilst this work is carried out. Just thought Dave had posted to rosy a picture in his above post.

Davesnave

cyclonebri1 wrote: »

Just thought Dave had posted to rosy a picture in his above post.

Dave just detailed what happened when a 3 m long 1m high section of his wall fell into a back lane. That didn't create a major soil collapse, but it's implicit that every situation must be different.

Similarly, when I said 'yourself' I took it that the OP would include him/herself in either a physical or a payment of others sense, depending on the situation.

Sorry if my post made anyone think I was advocating only DIY solutions, which could be dangerous or impractical.

Land_Registry

I'd go along with Davesnave first post here - the Council may have some responsibility re the public footpath for example and as such the wall falling over is a risk but they've presumably considered that, hence their response.
A solicitor or indeed Garden law may help on that front but the cost of forcing the issue may be far greater than the cost of doing the repairs?

The chain link fence and plans simply reinforce the key point re boundaries is that they can move/change both in position and definition re what materials are used. The original development records and/or first Transfer/Conveyance may offer some clues e.g. a covenant 'to maintain the boundary marked by a chain linked fence' but it is often down to guesswork unless oyu have that local knowledge from day 1.

Similarly a previous owner may have constructed the wall as they felt insecure with just a chain link fence between them and a public footpath?

Bottom line with boundary issues that invariably it is for the neighbours to discuss and agree a way forward. Your neighbour is the Council

Vini123

Thanks all for your response(s). I'm currently waiting on admin approval at Garden Law - I'll be CC'ing this there when I'm in

I had a quick look at some old maps yesterday, and unfortunately they don't really go into any great detail. As you can see from our title plan/deeds, the 'line' to the right of our property (as you look over the deeds) potentially shows the 'footpath' as it was back then.

None of our title documents seem to state in any clarity whether or not this wall existed at the time.

Our neighbours might hold some valuable information, as they have been here since the house(s) were first built.

Ultimately, I'm almost certain it will be on us to rectify. Which is fine, we kind of expected as much. However, I want to be 110% certain before we act.

Given Wimpey (housing) extended the street. Could they have potentially sweetened the previous owners by saying, we'll give you £XYZ and build you a wall, however going forward its yours to manage and maintain?

Land_Registry_representative wrote: »

Similarly a previous owner may have constructed the wall as they felt insecure with just a chain link fence between them and a public footpath?

Bottom line with boundary issues that invariably it is for the neighbours to discuss and agree a way forward. Your neighbour is the Council

This is also a good point, previous owners could have had the wall built, but I would have assumed that this would fall outside the boundaries at that time. The posts holding the chain link fence, look a lot older than the wall. Although looks can be deceiving I guess.

As you've all said above, the council being the neighbour isn't ideal. As pointed out, their pockets run a lot deeper than ours

Land_Registry

Vini123 wrote: »

This is also a good point, previous owners could have had the wall built, but I would have assumed that this would fall outside the boundaries at that time. The posts holding the chain link fence, look a lot older than the wall. Although looks can be deceiving I guess.

Trying to establish the precise position of the legal boundary is an impossible task as it is in essence an imaginary line.
As you already know boundary features move/change in a variety of ways and sometimes you might end up with 2 or more as in the case
I suspect the Council would have little concerns re whether the chain links were the boundary or the wall was provided you did not encroach on the footpath itself.

Wimpey are very unlikely to be interested in the land between the chains and the wall or indeed any slither of land which an owner may think falls outside what they believe to be their legal boundary (and I don't mean ransom strips hear as they are something quite different)

So as you appreciate there are several ifs buts and maybes around such things and Garden law will help to reaffirm that for you. What they will do is give you some sage advice as to whether there are any more steps you could take legally - I suspect there aren't any that you would look to consider but it is certainly worth being aware of all the ifs buts and maybes just in case it crops up in the future and if you do sell up your buyer may query it.

110% certainty is therefore in my experience unachievable but you will have a much wider understanding and experience of what's involved

cyclonebri1

Davesnave wrote: »

Dave just detailed what happened when a 3 m long 1m high section of his wall fell into a back lane. That didn't create a major soil collapse, but it's implicit that every situation must be different.

Similarly, when I said 'yourself' I took it that the OP would include him/herself in either a physical or a payment of others sense, depending on the situation.

Sorry if my post made anyone think I was advocating only DIY solutions, which could be dangerous or impractical.

I get you but my experience was entirely the opposite. I was tackling about 5 yard "bites", demolishing, re-building, demo......etc.
On at least 3 occaisions I awoke to find over a ton of earth across my drive.
The amount of spoil produced amounted to 4 full size skips hence my comments re "it's not quite that simple".

I hadn't realised the amount of waste and the space needed to hold it day to day, and had I not got a very wide drive I would have had to ruin the garden.

Incidentally I started mine in March during or should I say inbetween very wet weather, that and a few frosts no doubt caused my issues.

Vinni, i forgot to mention it's a min of 5 weeks notice for a footpath closure in my area should it come to that so it needs to be factored into the timescale