Advice for my Dad

sangie595

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

sangie595 - like the quote from Agenda 4 Change by Getmore4less, I have always understood that if you retire from the NHS and receive pension benefits, then the service that these benefits is based on does not count for redundancy purposes if you are subsequently re-employed in the NHS (even with no break in service). ie the service slate is wiped clean after receipt of pension benefits.


To me this always made sense because it seems perverse that you would be able to retire and take the benefit of a generous pension scheme and then have that pensionable service "double counted" for redundancy.


Nevertheless, you are clear that that view is mistaken?


(PS - from my NHS experience I agree with the views in your last post as to probably why this has never been challenged)


Apologies for hijacking the thread a bit.

I don't disagree with the sentiment. I'm drawing my pension soon and I wouldn't even want to work! But this is, to me, one of those things. Employees cannot claim ignorance of the law. Neither can employers. Putting a break of even two weeks in there isn't rocket science. And that is all it needs. On the other hand, and this is just a personal opinion, for every experienced pensioned worker that stays in employment, that's one less job down at the bottom that isn't available for a young person. If people move on, others fill the gaps and it leaves a space, hopefully, for a young person to get into the labour market. Or someone else for that matter.

Ali that said, life isn't quite that simple, and we also don't know that this person isn't just carrying the state pension and can't afford to retire. We can't assume they have a great occupational pension or that they can afford their retirement. My local supermarket note seems to be half staffed with retired people!

Andy_L

sangie595 wrote: »

Interesting. But the NHS conditions of service are not law. And I would look forward to someone challenging this in law, because the term does not reflect the legal position. NHS employees are also not office holders, which is an entirely different thing than an employee. Such a term could certainly be imposed on an office holder. But not an employee.

Is it perhaps you lose your entitlement to the NHS redundancy payment is only calculated on post retirement pay (as a contractual issue) but you are still entitled to the, lower, statutory redundancy payment based on full service?

Edit: Found it

32. What about employees who have retired, returned to work in the NHS and subsequently made redundant? Does their previous NHS service count for redundancy?

"Section 16.6 of the NHS Terms and Conditions of Service Handbook states that reckonable service does not count for employment where the member has taken pension benefits.

16.6 The following employment will not count as reckonable service:

employment that has been taken into account for the purposes of a previous redundancy, or loss of office payment by an NHS employer
where the employee has previously been given pension benefits, any employment that has been taken into account for the purposes of those pension benefits.
However, if the employee has a break of less than one week after they have retired, they would be entitled to statutory redundancy. In order to prevent this situation arising, employers may require a break of 14 days between retirement and re-engagement to ensure that there has been a ‘statutory’ break in service."

http://www.nhsemployers.org/your-workforce/pay-and-reward/nhs-terms-and-conditions/nhs-terms-and-conditions-of-service-handbook/nhs-redundancy-arrangements/nhs-redundancy-faqs#6

Manxman_in_exile

Thank you sangie. Good luck when you retire.


(Edit: You are also correct that we do not know the OP's father's circumstances. Apologies again to OP for going off topic)

Manxman_in_exile

Ah! Thank you Andy.


So, as long as there is a break of fewer than 7 days, the pre-retirement service will count towards statutory redundancy entitlement, but will not count towards entitlement under the NHS redundancy terms?


That makes better sense.

sangie595

Andy_L wrote: »

Is it perhaps you lose your entitlement to the NHS redundancy payment is only calculated on post retirement pay (as a contractual issue) but you are still entitled to the, lower, statutory redundancy payment based on full service?

Edit: Found it

32. What about employees who have retired, returned to work in the NHS and subsequently made redundant? Does their previous NHS service count for redundancy?

"Section 16.6 of the NHS Terms and Conditions of Service Handbook states that reckonable service does not count for employment where the member has taken pension benefits.

16.6 The following employment will not count as reckonable service:

employment that has been taken into account for the purposes of a previous redundancy, or loss of office payment by an NHS employer
where the employee has previously been given pension benefits, any employment that has been taken into account for the purposes of those pension benefits.
However, if the employee has a break of less than one week after they have retired, they would be entitled to statutory redundancy. In order to prevent this situation arising, employers may require a break of 14 days between retirement and re-engagement to ensure that there has been a ‘statutory’ break in service."

http://www.nhsemployers.org/your-workforce/pay-and-reward/nhs-terms-and-conditions/nhs-terms-and-conditions-of-service-handbook/nhs-redundancy-arrangements/nhs-redundancy-faqs#6

Yes that does make sense. And whilst the NHS does end up in tribunals and does make mistakes, I am glad they are not so far gone as to have made this one! Clearly managers are being told - make sure there is a break and it won't happen. And yes, no employer is required to give more than statutory redundancy, and on this basis, the employer is setting out clear terms for redundancy payments. Perfectly fair. That explains why nobody has challenged it - the previous quote was only partial terms.

Manxman_in_exile

I have just one more question, please, then I'll disappear from this thread.


I know someone (not me!) who works for a local authority. They recently took flexible retirement and were immediately re-employed (no break in service) 2 grades lower (a requirement of the flexible scheme as I understand it). This new position may be at threat of future redundancy. If that happens will they still be able to have all their previous service counted for statutory redundancy rather than the shorter service since they retired?


Or does it hinge on the specific T&Cs of their employment contract and/or employer's pension scheme? (I'm not sure whether these are essentially "national" as in the NHS or vary between authorities).


Sorry. Two questions technically.