Advice for my Dad

sangie595

I'm sorry, but those people advising that drawing your pension nullifies continuous service are quite wrong. The only thing that nullifies continuous service is a break in employment as defined in the law. In fact, even a short break is dodgy - there are a number of cases where the employer has insisted on a short break in between employments and the EAT has ruled that these were deliberate attempts to break continuous service and that the break should be disregarded. As far as an employer is concerned, if someone retires the safest thing to do is to cease any and all further employment of that person.

getmore4less

NHS A4C

16.6 The following employment will not count as reckonable service:
 employment that has been taken into account for the purposes of a previous redundancy, or loss of office payment by an NHS employer;
 where the employee has previously been given pension benefits, any employment that has been taken into account for the purposes of
those pension benefits.

yorksbabe

Hi again guys. My dad retired from his job on the Friday, but before he finished that day, they had a meeting with him and asked him to go back part time. He started work as a part timer the following Wednesday for 2 days a week. Until last Friday when he got the news.

MoneyMission2015

yorksbabe wrote: »

Hi again guys. My dad retired from his job on the Friday, but before he finished that day, they had a meeting with him and asked him to go back part time. He started work as a part timer the following Wednesday for 2 days a week. Until last Friday when he got the news.

Based on what others have advised above and your confirmation that there was no break in employment, he has been in continuous employment the whole time and is therefore entitled to statutory redundancy for the full period that he has worked for the company, not just the 4 years since his 'retirement'. Looks like the company has realised their mistake and is hoping that your dad doesn't realise what he is entitled to, trying to pull a fast one it seems.


Good luck to your dad. Make sure he gets all that he is entitled to, he should definitely seek legal advice.

tightasagnats

ACAS - https://www.acas.org.uk - free employment legal advice

Acas Helpline
Call our Helpline on 0300 123 1100 from Monday-Friday, 8am-8pm and Saturday, 9am-1pm for free support and advice

sangie595

getmore4less wrote: »

NHS A4C

16.6 The following employment will not count as reckonable service:
 employment that has been taken into account for the purposes of a previous redundancy, or loss of office payment by an NHS employer;
 where the employee has previously been given pension benefits, any employment that has been taken into account for the purposes of
those pension benefits.

Interesting. But the NHS conditions of service are not law. And I would look forward to someone challenging this in law, because the term does not reflect the legal position. NHS employees are also not office holders, which is an entirely different thing than an employee. Such a term could certainly be imposed on an office holder. But not an employee.

sangie595

tightasagnats wrote: »

ACAS - https://www.acas.org.uk - free employment legal advice

Acas Helpline
Call our Helpline on 0300 123 1100 from Monday-Friday, 8am-8pm and Saturday, 9am-1pm for free support and advice

Get a lawyer. Not ACAS. They are not what they once were. Yippy couldn't friend on the term right get the time right.

getmore4less

sangie595 wrote: »

Interesting. But the NHS conditions of service are not law. And I would look forward to someone challenging this in law, because the term does not reflect the legal position. NHS employees are also not office holders, which is an entirely different thing than an employee. Such a term could certainly be imposed on an office holder. But not an employee.

there are a lot of people that potentially could be covered by this surprised the unions have not done something.

I forgot to add there is also redundancy compensation adjustment if re employed after Mutually Agreed Resignation Scheme (MARS).

covered by section 20.

20.18 Any severance payment made will be offset against any subsequent payment made for the purposes of any future calculation of redundancy payments in subsequent employment, where the period of employment covered by the severance payment is taken into account in calculating the
redundancy payment.

sangie595

getmore4less wrote: »

there are a lot of people that potentially could be covered by this surprised the unions have not done something.

I forgot to add there is also redundancy compensation adjustment if re employed after Mutually Agreed Resignation Scheme (MARS).

covered by section 20.

20.18 Any severance payment made will be offset against any subsequent payment made for the purposes of any future calculation of redundancy payments in subsequent employment, where the period of employment covered by the severance payment is taken into account in calculating the
redundancy payment.

Yes, the redundancy repayment if re-engaged is not uncommon in the public sector. Some employers will never re-engage someone who has taken redundancy; others have a specific period of break, usually between 8 weeks and one year, and anyone who returns within that period must repay all or some of their redundancy payment but gets the whole period of the break back as continuous service. Which I guess is fair enough.


As to why nobody has tested the retirement thing, there are usually a number of reasons why this is the case. First being that people believe what they are told. Second being that many managers and HR are not that stupid - they make sure a break exists. Third - an awful lot of retired people either don't want to work or don't want to work in the NHS - many roles in the NHS are actually very hard work and awful hours, and older people often don't want that. Fourth (probably the clincher) a lot of part-time work is covered by bank staff. Most NHS employers maintain their banks as workers (zero hours) and not employees, so the entire thing is irrelevant because workers don't accrue continuous service.

Manxman_in_exile

sangie595 - like the quote from Agenda 4 Change by Getmore4less, I have always understood that if you retire from the NHS and receive pension benefits, then the service that these benefits is based on does not count for redundancy purposes if you are subsequently re-employed in the NHS (even with no break in service). ie the service slate is wiped clean after receipt of pension benefits.


To me this always made sense because it seems perverse that you would be able to retire and take the benefit of a generous pension scheme and then have that pensionable service "double counted" for redundancy.


Nevertheless, you are clear that that view is mistaken?


(PS - from my NHS experience I agree with the views in your last post as to probably why this has never been challenged)


Apologies for hijacking the thread a bit.