Land Registry Issue - causing selling issue

silvercar

The owner in 1951 was the father of the person who bought the freehold in '97. As when he passed he the house and was transferred. I then bought the house from him in 2003.

This makes sense. Someone inherits a property, realises the lease is short so buys the freehold before selling the property as a freehold house.

Sounds like the lease wasn't removed from the deeds when the freehold was bought. So either the owner bought the freehold but sold the property as a leasehold property and kept the freehold as an investment. Or the leasehold was rescinded.

If the leasehold was kept and sold to you, you would have been paying ground rent and you would have been made aware, along with your lender, that the lease runs out in 2045. Both of which would have raised red flags by your solicitor.

So the most likely scenario is that you bought the freehold but the leasehold wasn't removed from the deeds. So either an indemnity is needed to cover the lease still showing on the deeds or it needs to be removed.

danslenoir

silvercar wrote: »

So the most likely scenario is that you bought the freehold but the leasehold wasn't removed from the deeds. So either an indemnity is needed to cover the lease still showing on the deeds or it needs to be removed.

OP mentioned in first post that the buyers have already stated that indemnity is insufficient and they will pull out if the leasehold is not removed from the deeds.

OP, why don't you phone the Land Registry, explain your situation, and see what they advise with respect to process/timelines for getting it removed?

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/land-registry/about/access-and-opening

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Land_Registry

As already posted it reads as if the freehold title refers to the lease but the lease is not registered in it's own right but simply noted.

So you need to prove that the leasehold interest has come to an end and form CN1 would be the correct form. So it will be a case of piecing together the history of what happened and demonstrating how that (if that is what has happened) has caused the lease to come to an end, 'determine'. Practice Guide 26 explains the wide variety of ways that a lease can be determined.

Understanding of the situation and appreciation of the conveyancing issues involved will vary and whilst you can often insure against many things nowadays it is still up to the buyer/their solicitor as to how they view the risk.

In response to danslenoir - yes there are delays on certain types of application although specifically these in the vast majority of cases relate to applications involving new titles, so the registration of a new lease for example.

An application to cancel a noted lease, as in this case, would not be one of these and whilst it is not an everyday application and as such may take slightly longer than the current average of 6/7 working days, everything will depend on the evidence you submit to confirm that the lease has indeed been determined.

If for example it is insufficient we will then advise you of this and give you time to provide additional evidence as appropriate - that is then where any delay will normally set in.

Ringing us should elicit the same details as I have provided (albeit probably not as lengthy) - namely a link to the form and an indication as to possible timescales. The key thing for your buyer is that they want it removed so the focus, in my view, should be on the evidence you have as to how the lease has come to an end (if indeed it has)

Your solicitor should be able to advise on what evidence is required although PG26 will also assist.

Note - and as you suggest if you were unaware of the noted lease at the time you bought then either your solicitor also did not notice it or they took the view that the risk was too small to worry about. Only they would be able to confirm though and that may shed some additional light on how things can be viewed in more than one way

AlanCD

Land_Registry_representative wrote: »

As already posted it reads as if the freehold title refers to the lease but the lease is not registered in it's own right but simply noted.

So you need to prove that the leasehold interest has come to an end and form CN1 would be the correct form. So it will be a case of piecing together the history of what happened and demonstrating how that (if that is what has happened) has caused the lease to come to an end, 'determine' Practice Guide 26 explains the wide variety of ways that a lease can be determined.

Understanding of the situation and appreciation of the conveyancing issues involved will vary and whilst you can often insure against many things nowadays it is still up to the buyer/their solicitor as to how they view the risk.

In response to danslenoir - yes there are delays on certain types of application although specifically these in the vast majority of cases relate to applications involving new titles, so the registration of a new lease for example.

An application to cancel a noted lease, as in this case, would not be one of these and whilst it is not an everyday application and as such may take slightly longer than the current average of 6/7 working days, everything will depend on the evidence you submit to confirm that the lease has indeed been determined.

If for example it is insufficient we will then advise you of this and give you time to provide additional evidence as appropriate - that is then where any delay will normally set in.

Ringing us should elicit the same details as I have provided (albeit probably not as lengthy) - namely a link to the form and an indication as to possible timescales. The key thing for your buyer is that they want it removed so the focus, in my view, should be on the evidence you have as to how the lease has come to an end (if indeed it has)

Your solicitor should be able to advise on what evidence is required although PG26 will also assist.

Note - and as you suggest if you were unaware of the noted lease at the time you bought then either your solicitor also did not notice it or they took the view that the risk was too small to worry about. Only they would be able to confirm though and that may shed some additional light on how things can be viewed in more than one way

Thanks for the reply, would a lease interest not come to an end when the freehold is purchased?

From what I can gather -

1946 lease was agreed and signed with original purchaser.
1951 House was sold.
1978 the homeowner died and house was passed on to their son.
1997 freehold was purchased from the company who originally owned the land and built the house.
2003 I bought the house - as a freehold and nothing came up.

Speaking to the previous owner and he used to pay the £5 a year lease charge to the company and not an individual, certainly not the person from 1946. When he purchased the freehold in '97 the lease payments stopped as the freehold was bought. It just seems this 1946 lease is lingering about and was never removed. So when the house was sold in 1951 I would of imagined they took over the £5 a year charge on the lease?

It's a bit confusing for me, but I have to say I have no faith in the solicitors for sorting this, it is in the hands of the buyers solicitors as they have received copies of the paperwork..

Would it be easier for me to do it? - there is an awful lot of paperwork in the pack I had, showing the house sales, the lease from 1946, the freehold purchase etc etc.. I just don't want to have so many hurdles the buyer decides to just pull out.

Thanks.

danslenoir

AlanCD wrote: »

Te buyers solicitors as they have received copies of the paperwork..

Would it be easier for me to do it? - there is an awful lot of paperwork in the pack I had, showing the house sales, the lease from 1946, the freehold purchase etc etc.. I just don't want to have so many hurdles the buyer decides to just pull out.

Thanks.

I don't think that your buyer will be able to apply on your behalf to have the leasehold removed. You will need to do that yourself either via your solicitor or off your own back.

If you want the sale to happen, suck it up and do it. Irrespective of what happens with the current buyer it is in your best interests to have your deeds updated to reflect that there is no leasehold on the property.

AlanCD

danslenoir wrote: »

I don't think that your buyer will be able to apply on your behalf to have the leasehold removed. You will need to do that yourself either via your solicitor or off your own back.

If you want the sale to happen, suck it up and do it. Irrespective of what happens with the current buyer it is in your best interests to have your deeds updated to reflect that there is no leasehold on the property.

Yeah that's fine I am willing to do it, from what I gathered my sols sent the other sides sols copies and they are going to try and get it removed.

I think I will call mine and see where we are.

horsechestnut

Have you checked with the solicitor that handled your transaction when you bought the house? I had problems with something not being registered at the Land Registry and after much chasing around I found that the solicitors whom I had used for the house purchase 28 years earlier had all the papers; so I was able to sort the problem quickly once I had the documents.
The same applies to the person from whom you bought the house; their solicitor might still hold the papers.
I think it stems from when people had the same solicitor's firm for life!

AlanCD

horsechestnut wrote: »

Have you checked with the solicitor that handled your transaction when you bought the house? I had problems with something not being registered at the Land Registry and after much chasing around I found that the solicitors whom I had used for the house purchase 28 years earlier had all the papers; so I was able to sort the problem quickly once I had the documents.
The same applies to the person from whom you bought the house; their solicitor might still hold the papers.
I think it stems from when people had the same solicitor's firm for life!

Ha, yeah they used the same solicitors... I do have all the paperwork with all the details in there, it's a massive pack! I must admit that it's all a bit over my head at the moment.

AlanCD

Just made a call and it is indeed my solicitors who are going to submit to get the lease removed (hopefully).

AlanCD

Solicitors said they have to do it as I don't own the lease... So in their hands it is...