VCS.... Again

Team_Sovereign

Hello to all on the MSE forum. Firstly I would really like to add my thanks along with those already offered for the amount of work you guys have put into the PPC guides with all the advice, links, replies and overall effort. Sadly I am another one of these guys who appear from nowhere expecting you to give me your time to help me fight off a 'PCN'. That much is true but I am genuinely grateful for your help and any associated advice.

This is my second run in with VCS, the first being at Doncaster Airport. That time was simple because I was on the premises for work and a quick phone call to the airport director had the 'charge' removed immediately.

Now onto the current saga with VCS.

In short, two weeks ago we may have overstayed our welcome in a free car park in a retail area of our small North Yorkshire town on evening. Earlier this week my other half (as RK) got one of the invoices from VCS because their ANPR logged our overstay (1hr over during the evening) and provided the usual dark grainy photos which only allow you to make out the number plate, its difficult to even make out the car. We genuinely did not know this car park was monitored and unaware of the time limit... but that's irrelevant.

The 14-day reduced pay up period ends this Tuesday (05/04/16) - they imply you need to appeal by then just to stick with the reduced charge.....

I have done the usual research on here and have also since noted VCS/Excell/whatever have opted recently to go with IPC and the kangaroo court IAS for appeal.

After careful reading of all the posts and advice on here, I will follow the appeal route to show willing to jump their hoops if it goes to court while following other lines of attack. More on that in a minute.

To muddy the waters somewhat, the whole reason for the overstay was because I had returned home from the Middle East, where I work, for a few days. We were there to get some shopping, see friends and family. I am also now a resident of one of the countries over here. My other half is the RK to the car and she's alone at home with the prospect of the inevitable threatening letters etc, I am dealing with VCS (and you kind folks) from a distance which is frustrating.

Currently I am seeking your advice - firstly on declining their very kind invitation to pay. While also following up one of the retailers, Sainsburys, who share the same car park to try and have this charge swotted that way.

Another bright spark of an idea, because I really don't want my missus having any undue stress and anxiety from these parasites - is for her to suggest I may have been the driver that night and these guys can come chase me out here in the Middle East (I even have a postal address for them ). Is such an idea doomed to fail? - I guess so...

After looking through the numerous threads and the letter to decline to pay a PPC specifically registered with IPC. I have drafted the below and would welcome any comment.

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DearVehicle Control Services Ltd

Re PCN number: XXXXXXXXXX

I am not ignoring your charge for a purported parking infraction. As this is purely a charge (not a statutory penalty) issued under a purported contract and the driver has not been identified, I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

1. Who is the party that contracted with your company for the provision of their services? I require their contact details.
2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
3. As you are not the landowner please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that you have their authority to both issue parking charges and litigate in your own name.
4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract please provide your justification of this sum.
6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? Answer yes or no.
7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please provide a valid VAT invoice for this 'service'.
8. Please provide a copy of the signs that purportedly were on site which you contend formed a contract with the driver on that occasion.

If you believe you have a cause of action, send a Letter before Claim within the next 21 days and I will take advice and will respond. Do not send debt collector letters I will not respond to these and take seriously any communication, in any form from a third-party collection as harassment and deal with these actions as such.

In my opinion, there is a better alternative than legal proceedings, namely that we utilise the services of a completely independent ADR service suited to parking charges. This does not include the IAS appeal service for the following reasons:
[FONT=&quot]The DVLA and the CTSI are well aware of the shortcomings of the IAS appeals service, which is currently being investigated by both of them. The legislation does give an ADR Entity six months to improve its processes and meet the legislation.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

I therefore believe that the IAS is not a fit body to use until both the DVLA and CTSI have finished their investigations, and the body has changed its processes to meet the legislation. I would be prepared to wait until this point in time if you agree.

Failing that, I propose that instead of the IAS, we use an ADR Entity which does currently meet all the regulatory requirements right now. One such body is the Consumer Ombudsman available at this website[FONT=&quot] ([FONT=&quot]CO[FONT=&quot] site link).[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]

I propose we use this body. Please note that practice directions state the court may impose sanctions if you unreasonably refuse to use a form of ADR, or fail to respond at all to an invitation to do so.[/FONT]

I repeat, do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs or surcharges. I will not respond to those, so to involve another firm would be a failure to mitigate your alleged loss. In any case, the addition of any debt collector 'costs' is not my liability because the POFA 2012 can only potentially hold a registered keeper liable if certain provisions have been met and even then, the 'amount of the parking charge' is the only amount pursuable.

Yours faithfully,

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My apologies for the long initial post. If there's anything I can correct please let me know.


From research on here, PePiPoo and Parking Prankster I see an appeal through the kangaroo court is likely doomed to fail, but I will show willingness to jump their hoops as well as kindly suggest another ADR to appeal to. I am also deeply serious about pursuing harassment if they start with silly letters. This has nothing to do about the 60quid charge (or whatever that amount may be) its about these parasites going about business in this manor, i'm happy to throw a chunk of change to follow up that threat to them.


Once gain folks, thank you. :-)

Umkomaas

VCS effectively opt out of PoFA 2012 and assume the keeper was the driver.

The keeper should respond with the name and address for service of the driver (I think the letter you've received from VCS will refer to this?). So go ahead, name the driver and his Middle East address.

When they reject this, the driver emails confirming he was visiting the UK and was the driver of the vehicle on the day, sending proof of his Middle East address.

To be honest, these outfits make up the rules as they go along, but as there is no prospect of winning the case via any appeal process with an IPC AOS member, then the above strategy is as good as any. In fact it may be they will view this as too difficult and let it go. Who knows?

If they continue to reject this the keeper appeals to the IAS with absolute proof that the driver has been named and has confirmed he was the driver on the day. If VCS try then to turn back to PoFA to pursue the keeper, the name of the driver and an address for service has been provided -as per the Act. Nowhere in the Act does an 'address for service' have to be a UK address.

So my advice is to forget the template appeal and go with my suggestion. See what others say over the next day or so.

Redx

Team_Sovereign wrote: »

Now onto the current saga with VCS.

In short, two weeks ago we may have overstayed our welcome in a free car park in a retail area of our small North Yorkshire town on evening.

Earlier this week my other half (as RK) got one of the invoices from VCS because their ANPR logged our overstay (1hr over during the evening) and provided the usual dark grainy photos which only allow you to make out the number plate, its difficult to even make out the car.

point of order , lol

I take it you do realise that ANPR cameras or photos are deliberately set that way as all they need is the number plate, its never a passport quality photo so will always be grainy and indistinct, thats the idea, just to enhamce the VRN and block out the rest

some people have put reg plates onto shopping trolleys and wheeled them in and out of car parks to see if it triggers a NTK, it does

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/smart-parking-ticket-shopping-trolley.html

so only the number plate matters so they skew the photos that way, deliberately

see here

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/how-parking-operators-use-anpr.html

pappa_golf

To muddy the waters somewhat, the whole reason for the overstay was because I had returned home from the Middle East, where I work, for a few days. We were there to get some shopping, see friends and family. I am also now a resident of one of the countries over here. My other half is the RK to the car and she's alone at home with the prospect of the inevitable threatening letters etc, I am dealing with VCS (and you kind folks) from a distance which is frustrating


send them your full name and the overseas address , and sit back

Coupon-mad

Yep, get the keeper to name you as driver with the Middle East Address and this can be done by email (as shown in the PCN). The keeper should get a read receipt. The keeper must also sign off with their name and address because VCS insist on it and might just ignore any email not showing those full details. Put the VRN and PCN number in the subject line and head it up 'transfer of liability - driver's name and address'.

Then as Umkomaas says, VCS might wriggle and reply to your other half, pretending that an address for service must be in the UK. That's not true, the POFA says no such thing. You should then do this (below), again with the PCN and VRN in the subject line, for clarity and consistency:

When they reject this, the driver emails confirming he was visiting the UK and was the driver of the vehicle on the day, sending proof of his Middle East address.

Then keep all these emails and their replies in a folder for 6 years in case they try a small claim against your OH much later. She would not be liable but you'd then be pleased you kept the proof that the driver was named. They can't touch you in the Middle East because you are out of UK jurisdiction and VCS rarely try small claims anyway (VERY rare).

hoohoo

As per the others, get the RK to truthfully name the driver and give the true middle east address. When they write to you, reply (to confirm the address is correct) and appeal the charge. You can do this via email, so no postage required!

Come back here if they try and pull the fast one that the drivers address must by in England/Wales.

Team_Sovereign

Dear all,

Thank you very much for the time given to offer advice.

Redx - thanks for the info on ANPR, every day is a school day and i've learned something new today :-)

Based on advice from here I will get my other half to reply to VCS with my name and contact address over here. We'll either do that via email or return the slip on their letter and have a certificate of postage from the Royal Mail - we don't want to make it easy for these guys. I will save that appeal letter for myself later, if we get that far

She did try to approach one of the bigger retailers who utilise the car park but they shrugged and said it's not their land, nothing they can do.... still worth a shot at least.

Can anyone offer and reassurance on a couple of concerns I have?
Firstly, I will be out in the Middle East for a couple of years minimum while making infrequent, short visits to the UK. Is there any worry that I may return home one day to a CCJ or anything equally unpleasant?
Secondly, knowing how bad VCS really are at this point - I am still concerned that my other half is going to be harassed? Is there anything we can add to her reply to them to make it clear that such behavior will not be tolerated?

I guess however, that VCS will try to ignore the fact the 'driver' is not a UK resident that lives abroad and continue to harass her anyway. We will soon find out.

Anyone who's familiar with the Middle East may know that there are no addresses for post as such, just PO Boxes and all VCS can have from us is a company PO Box any letters they send may take a few days, weeks or months to reach me (as is normal) or maybe, not turn up at all. There's no way they can have an email contact because, where is the fun in that?!?

So, I will make sure my other half follows your advice and we will both sit tight for incoming. I suspect this saga has a LOT further to roll on yet.

Cheers :-)

pappa_golf

VCS cannot start a court claim on a NON UK resident ,


if they were to attempt this at your last known UK address , heads will roll

Team_Sovereign

That's all the reassurance I need!

Thank you :-)

Coupon-mad

Your wife could try a complaint to another retailer and/or the managing agent for the site (easily found by Googling the name of the retail park and reading any newspaper articles or press releases or retail adverts about the site itself).

Whoever runs the place will be easy to find once you sit down and search.

THEY will have taken on VCS and they can cancel PCNs for complainants who are p'eed off and harassed to the point of never wanting to frequent the retail park ever again. Copies of bank statements or receipts showing regular patronage or a large purchase there in the past always helps - not to VCS, but send to retailer head offices or the landowner/agent as a complaint. Works well in most cases.

Team_Sovereign

Thank you Coupon-mad, I will ask her to keep trying that for a second line of defense.

In other news, she has returned the slip to VCS in the post with proof of postage and has the Middle East address over here for them to play with.

We shall keep you all updated with further developments :-D