Minimum wage

princeofpounds

Re France - yes the level of the minimum wage is a deceptive number. The costs of hiring and firing in France relate much more to all sorts of random social security contributions from employee and employer, and the risk that once you have hired someone it is exceptionally difficult to downsize the business if things go wrong.


For instance, take a look at the table here - this mess is roughly equivalent to our national insurance, which is bad enough in my opinion for complexity and uselessness.


http://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/regime_france/an_a2.html

N1AK

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Between now and 2020 MW will increase by a minimum of £2.30 per hour. So if somebody works full time say 1950 hours a year. That's an increase in basic wage of £4,485. Would you be happy if say you had 5 years experience in the job to be told you'd now get paid the same. And wouldn't get a differential to somebody starting tomorrow. Staff retention may well be an issue for that employer. .

Staff retention would only be an issue if another employer was willing to pay someone with 5 years experience more than your firm was. People don't move because newer employees are paid as much as them, they move because they could get a better deal elsewhere.

I worked on the plan to handle the national living wage for the firm I am now leaving; we are increasing wages for operational workers already earning more, but the difference between levels is shrinking by 30-50%. There is no formal plan to increase pay for workers in the office environment, so theoretically the lowest paid office workers may end up earning less than some operational workers who currently earn less than them due to the change). It might have been a bigger issue for our office teams if we had more than a tiny fraction who weren't already earning in excess of the new minimum already.

michaels

princeofpounds wrote: »

Re France - yes the level of the minimum wage is a deceptive number. The costs of hiring and firing in France relate much more to all sorts of random social security contributions from employee and employer, and the risk that once you have hired someone it is exceptionally difficult to downsize the business if things go wrong.


For instance, take a look at the table here - this mess is roughly equivalent to our national insurance, which is bad enough in my opinion for complexity and uselessness.


http://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/regime_france/an_a2.html

Thanks - I suspect most small businesses in the UK would not employ anyone with those rules - not so much cos of the cost but just because of the complexity....

Thrugelmir

N1AK wrote: »

Staff retention would only be an issue if another employer was willing to pay someone with 5 years experience more than your firm was.

All the successful private sector operations I have known over the years have staff retention at their core. The value of long service shouldn't be underestimated.

HornetSaver

Thrugelmir wrote: »

All the successful private sector operations I have known over the years have staff retention at their core. The value of long service shouldn't be underestimated.

Sure, for white collar or highly skilled manual jobs.

I don't think the same holds true for those at the bottom in areas such as retail or warehousing. In these sorts of areas staff retention is generally seen as icing on the cake rather than as a core aim. Though there are of course exceptions to every rule.

Thrugelmir

HornetSaver wrote: »

Sure, for white collar or highly skilled manual jobs.

I don't think the same holds true for those at the bottom in areas such as retail or warehousing. In these sorts of areas staff retention is generally seen as icing on the cake rather than as a core aim. Though there are of course exceptions to every rule.

The sector is irrelevant. Management is the key. A good Company operates like a Swiss watch, seamlessly and effortlessly.

Rinoa

michaels wrote: »

My understanding is that it is extremely expensive to employ people in France whether those costs are called wages or employer social security contributions, employment rights etc etc. The point is if you price people permanently out of the labour market then it is hardly surprising that they become disaffected.

Very true. France has high unemployment and has belatedly realised that making people expensive to employ, difficult to sack and making a 35 working week mandatory, isn't helping the economy.

So they're getting rid of the 35 hour week and making it easier for companies to downsize in difficult times, believing this will encourage more people to be employed.

It hasn't gone down too well.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3517631/Violence-erupts-Paris-streets-students-clash-riot-police-protests-reforms-extend-35-hour-working-week.html

patman99

Having worked in a care home as part of the maintanence team, I can safely say that the employer I worked-for paid a lot more than nmw to the care staff.

However, there are care companies who would use the new nmw to actually make sure that all new staff employed are under 25 years of age and will have a fixed-term contract that will expire prior to their 25th birthday.


I can also foresee employers in some sectors actually offering positions on a self-employed basis just to get around the nmw.

HornetSaver

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Management is the key. A good Company operates like a Swiss watch, seamlessly and effortlessly.

True.

And whether staff retention is at the core of that depends on how much development is required to get someone up to speed. Which is entirely sector-dependent.

mwpt

Rinoa wrote: »

Very true. France has high unemployment and has belatedly realised that making people expensive to employ, difficult to sack and making a 35 working week mandatory, isn't helping the economy.

So they're getting rid of the 35 hour week and making it easier for companies to downsize in difficult times, believing this will encourage more people to be employed.

It hasn't gone down too well.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3517631/Violence-erupts-Paris-streets-students-clash-riot-police-protests-reforms-extend-35-hour-working-week.html

Well, this is always the problem with the left. You cannot take away, you can only ever increase social handouts and big "stateness". Anything else is seen as an attack on the poor or injustice or whatever, even if it reverts a silly change that may have been made a few years back.