How much detail and micro-management do builders require?

ijrwe

Let's say we're building a plain extension on a very typical house, what level of detail would a builder expect from the architect? Does he require almost brick-by-brick specifications and measurements, exact details of materials and their source, fine details of roof and floor structure, etc.? Do you have to tell him what to do almost every step of the way, or does he know that "a wall" clearly should involve [everything a modern house wall involves] ?



Is he reasonably expected to have some experience in the matter and know what is appropriate timber, appropriate spacings and layout, how to structure footings, etc.? Can he basically be told some broad dimensions, shown some floor plans and elevations, and then be expected to do the work to a proper standard that Building Control will endorse?

System

The more information you can give them the more confident you can be in the pricing and the end product will be what you want and are expecting.
There's lots of ways to build a "wall" so what you think and what a builder thinks may differ.

Without a properly detailed specification and drawings you leave yourself open to price increases as the work goes on, disputes about what you think something should be and what the builder does. You also leave the door open to not knowing if prices are marked up/good/bad etc.

A builder should know how to construct something but some don't always keep up with current regs or changes to building control procedure. Just giving them rough dimensions and plans leave it very open for costly mistakes and variations.
I would also suggest that most good builders wouldn't want to work on that basis and would charge you to get their own people to draw up plans to make sure everyone is happy...

ijrwe

the_r_sole wrote: »

The more information you can give them the more confident you can be in the pricing and the end product will be what you want and are expecting.
There's lots of ways to build a "wall" so what you think and what a builder thinks may differ.

Without a properly detailed specification and drawings you leave yourself open to price increases as the work goes on, disputes about what you think something should be and what the builder does. You also leave the door open to not knowing if prices are marked up/good/bad etc.

A builder should know how to construct something but some don't always keep up with current regs or changes to building control procedure. Just giving them rough dimensions and plans leave it very open for costly mistakes and variations.
I would also suggest that most good builders wouldn't want to work on that basis and would charge you to get their own people to draw up plans to make sure everyone is happy...

hmm, ok. I ask because I've already done about £1500 worth of architect's work by simply producing elevations and floorplans for the project, to the standards I've seen on successful planning applications from my council's website. I have a tape measure and some CAD ability, and that seems to be all there is to it.

I'm fairly sure that I could make a successful planning application quite by myself, then.

HOWEVER, I have no particular knowledge of "building" and the details of how something is really put together, a certainly not what 2016 regulations demand. I was hoping to go on Building Notice rather than a Full Plans submission, to avoid another couple of grand sent the architect's way, but perhaps then such things are required just to set the builders straight?

System

ijrwe wrote: »

hmm, ok. I ask because I've already done about £1500 worth of architect's work by simply producing elevations and floorplans for the project, to the standards I've seen on successful planning applications from my council's website. I have a tape measure and some CAD ability, and that seems to be all there is to it.

I'm fairly sure that I could make a successful planning application quite by myself, then.

HOWEVER, I have no particular knowledge of "building" and the details of how something is really put together, a certainly not what 2016 regulations demand. I was hoping to go on Building Notice rather than a Full Plans submission, to avoid another couple of grand sent the architect's way, but perhaps then such things are required just to set the builders straight?

There is little technical information required for a planning application, pricing a job on those will lead to extras/changes as the job progresses on site.
How would you know which builder has priced it correctly or what they are allowing for each thing? You could get prices but you'd be unable to compare them if you are just saying "here's the rough dimensions I need it built to current regs "
Depends where you want to spend the money really, you could spend it now on the detailing stage, get everything specified to meet your requirements and building control and then get good accurate prices before you build - or take the chance that your builder is good enough at interpreting what you want, won't add extras, and it comes in within your budget...
If it's a builder you know and have experience of, and know their work is good then it's probably OK if their price is reasonable - if it's an unknown and you're going to a few for prices then I would definitely recommend having a full set of construction information or as close to that as possible

ijrwe

the_r_sole wrote: »

There is little technical information required for a planning application, pricing a job on those will lead to extras/changes as the job progresses on site.
How would you know which builder has priced it correctly or what they are allowing for each thing? You could get prices but you'd be unable to compare them if you are just saying "here's the rough dimensions I need it built to current regs "
Depends where you want to spend the money really, you could spend it now on the detailing stage, get everything specified to meet your requirements and building control and then get good accurate prices before you build - or take the chance that your builder is good enough at interpreting what you want, won't add extras, and it comes in within your budget...
If it's a builder you know and have experience of, and know their work is good then it's probably OK if their price is reasonable - if it's an unknown and you're going to a few for prices then I would definitely recommend having a full set of construction information or as close to that as possible

Yea, that makes sense. If, as you say, there are actually lots of ways to do "the same" job then perhaps full plans are more important than I imagined.

That raises another issue, though, that since I of course still don't know what's right/good/best/worthwhile/good-value then I'll be at the architect's mercy anyway, accepting the specs he advises and not knowing whether I really need it done that way or not.

And, for that matter, does an architect really know (or care) about the best routing for pipes, or the fiddly details of joinery with roof timbers? Will his ideas about those be better than the tradesman's? After all, if this was a smaller job (but involving much the same types of work) I could simply tell a builder to knock that wall through for a doorframe of x * y mm, or a plumber to stick a radiator on that wall and plumb it however he sees fit.

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Do you reckon that with neat elevations (e.g. http://i.imgur.com/dEVuF0j.png) along with floor plans and maybe a roof plan, I could at least get ballpark figures from a builder and an indication of his interest in the job?

Would they be enough to get a builder on site for a half-hour look around and chat about the project, to suss out what more he'd want from me? How about using a builder who's done similar work on local houses of identical construction, would that improve understanding?

System

You can get ballpark figures with almost any level of information, but they are based on assumptions it's when they aren't spot on you are left wide open to risk...
What you want is a contractor to know exactly what they are building so that you can get it properly priced by a few companies and know you are getting a fair price for the works.

The architect should know the most appropriate construction methods for your brief - some builders would as well, but you're then left rushing a decision on site with the only come back on you!

Time served tradesmen are always going to know little tricks to make their life easier but you will only know their knowledge and willingness to do things the best way for you well into having them on site - so if you have the backup of a solid set of information they at least have a good starting point, it's not uncommon for them to ask to change details if something appears on site.

If you're knowledge is good enough to inspect the work as it goes and ask the right questions without having a set of drawings to reference then you might be fine, similarly if you get a good contractor they might give you a good building, on time, on budget with little input from yourself.
Having good information at the start minimises the risks of not getting what you want and coming in on budget

Doozergirl

I've seen architects spend clients' money like it's water.

I think it really depends on what you want. Of course a builder should have plenty of knowledge to know instinctively what is required to meet building control.

If you think the build is simple and you don't want plans then I can only recommend that you see plenty of the builder's work to understand what level of specification they work to. You will not get three evenly specified quotes to compare without a spec. You must agree the spec before starting.

I'm not keen on writing out specs to save potential clients money on architects before being hired. The problem is that at that early stage a builder is generally up against other people, so the time spent doesn't always pay off.

I'm not convinced that architect's building regs go to particularly enough detail to get you to a finished product either.

On balance, it gives you a relatively clear framework to work within to avoid problems later and it also sends a signal to bad builders that you've taken some care over the planning and prep. The more you plan, the clearer your price will be and the less likely you are to find a builder walking off site because you have different expectations. I think you need deeper plans than just building regs.

I'm not sure that there is a right answer. It's about confidence and comfort.

EssexExile

ijrwe wrote: »

And, for that matter, does an architect really know (or care) about the best routing for pipes, or the fiddly details of joinery with roof timbers?

In my experience you leave the routing of pipes & cables to the tradesman, he just needs to be told where they have to end up & what they are for. With the roof you'll need detailed drawings for building control I would've thought.

southcoastrgi

I think if you started telling builders how to build walls you might have a few 4 letter replies, you are employing them for their knowledge & skill & you are already questioning their abilities

ijrwe

Doozergirl wrote: »

I've seen architects spend clients' money like it's water.

This is something I'm worried about - so far neither of the architects I have met (two visited out of nine I contacted) seemed like people I could control. Nice guys, but full of their own ideas and very hard to keep on track talking about the plans I handed them, rather than what they would do instead.

I'm a bit of a pushover in real life and am easily dominated in social/business situations, for some reason, and so I could easily end up losing control of the specification to the architect and not having the confidence (or knowledge) to reign him in.

I think it really depends on what you want. Of course a builder should have plenty of knowledge to know instinctively what is required to meet building control.

If you think the build is simple and you don't want plans then I can only recommend that you see plenty of the builder's work to understand what level of specification they work to. You will not get three evenly specified quotes to compare without a spec. You must agree the spec before starting.

I guess I should find out what things go into the spec, exactly? I guess I'm most concerned about the footings but unless my architect has x-ray vision then surely that's largely improvised (out of a set of acceptable styles) once they dig and see what kind of ground is there?

Then the walls, if I specify that it's a double-skin brick and block wall with [some particular] insulation between, with the outer skin to match existing, then there's surely not much more detail they can have?

I can easily provide the builder myself with very specific floor-plan type plans, showing each skin of the walls, all opening for doors and windows, etc. I guess the exact placing of such openings depends a bit on brick length, right? They'd rather work in full bricks where possible, I imagine, so they can put things +/-100mm where ever is convenient, stuff like that.

I guess I need to talk to a few builder really and find out what they want to have specified, and see if that's the same for them all.

I'm not keen on writing out specs to save potential clients money on architects before being hired. The problem is that at that early stage a builder is generally up against other people, so the time spent doesn't always pay off.

I'm not convinced that architect's building regs go to particularly enough detail to get you to a finished product either.

On balance, it gives you a relatively clear framework to work within to avoid problems later and it also sends a signal to bad builders that you've taken some care over the planning and prep. The more you plan, the clearer your price will be and the less likely you are to find a builder walking off site because you have different expectations. I think you need deeper plans than just building regs.

I'm not sure that there is a right answer. It's about confidence and comfort.

EssexExile wrote: »

In my experience you leave the routing of pipes & cables to the tradesman, he just needs to be told where they have to end up & what they are for. With the roof you'll need detailed drawings for building control I would've thought.

Can roofs and such be done on Building Notice?

southcoastrgi wrote: »

I think if you started telling builders how to build walls you might have a few 4 letter replies, you are employing them for their knowledge & skill & you are already questioning their abilities

Indeed - any builder who needs Lego instructions isn't fit to do the job in the first place, I would imagine.

Smiley_Dan

A lot of it depends on what you want the end product to be. There's not much knowledge in the UK about building performance or the detail required, so if that is important to you you need to know what they are up to.

Personally I think it's best to pay by time, rather than fixed price.