The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

westernpromise

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I have absolutely no idea what your point is.

Of course you don't. You have absolutely no idea to whom North Sea oil and gas belong; you have absolutely no idea what the UK is; you have absolutely no idea of what happens when the composition of the UK has changed. Given all that you have absolutely no idea about, you are certain to be unable to understand any point on which all these factors bear, no matter how often or how simply it is explained to you.

You are, actually, too ignorant to vote. But please don't let that stop you.

cogito

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Do me a favour and perhaps next time you reply about my being so called 'repeatedly' told something.. maybe actually read my posts ? I've spent several over the last few weeks talking about in-fighting and splits going on within both the SNP and the whole indy movement.

The SNP is losing support. Not because they're a party of independence, but and this is what you have to take in but because they aren't pushing Scottish independence hard enough or fast enough at the moment. Therefore support for independence is now a marked distance ahead of the SNP as a political party. Nicola has had a wake up call over the last week or so over being too anti-Brexit rather then pro-Indy. It remains to be seen if she takes heed.

That sounds very much like the excuse Labour trot out whenever they lose to the Tories. 'Our manifesto wasn’t socialist enough'

Tromking

mayonnaise wrote: »

The irony of a Brexiteer pontificating about the massive risk of stepping away from a larger Union.

No irony really.
If you can’t tell the difference between the supranational EU and the long-standing nation known as the United Kingdom then you’re beyond help.

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Do me a favour and perhaps next time you reply about my being so called 'repeatedly' told something.. maybe actually read my posts ? I've spent several over the last few weeks talking about in-fighting and splits going on within both the SNP and the whole indy movement.

The SNP is losing support. Not because they're a party of independence, but and this is what you have to take in but because they aren't pushing Scottish independence hard enough or fast enough at the moment. Therefore support for independence is now a marked distance ahead of the SNP as a political party. Nicola has had a wake up call over the last week or so over being too anti-Brexit rather then pro-Indy. It remains to be seen if she takes heed.

Sooo no. Your first few sentences on my conflating SNP electoral success and independence is wrong. You simply haven't read any of my posts and I'm afraid it shows.

The Tories are killing off the Union all by themselves. With Brexit on the horizon there's no safe status quo anymore. Secondly they're trying to mess with devolution and thirdly their next leader will be telling of the direction a future UK is heading. Anyone from the right wing/Brexit/No deal clique and Scots voters will be stampeding to the ballot boxs to put X's in the Yes box. Because in that case the UK is heading to a bad place both economically AND politically.

Scotland didn't vote either for Tories nor for Brexit... and can cherish their British heritage as a past regretful thing just after voting Yes in order to avoid the future abject horrors of a Tory Brexit with Boris Johnson in charge.

Again, your obsession with the Tories is blinding you to the quite obvious flaws in your argument for imminent independence.
A Boris led Tory Brexit would have to be truly disastrous to edge Scotland toward independence and even then I can’t see your average canny Scot compounding that disaster by opting to leave the U.K, a decision with way more potentially disastrous consequences than Brexit.
Is your dislike of English Tories all you’ve got?
You’re gong to need way more than that.

Shakethedisease

westernpromise wrote: »

Of course you don't. You have absolutely no idea to whom North Sea oil and gas belong; you have absolutely no idea what the UK is; you have absolutely no idea of what happens when the composition of the UK has changed. Given all that you have absolutely no idea about, you are certain to be unable to understand any point on which all these factors bear, no matter how often or how simply it is explained to you.

You are, actually, too ignorant to vote. But please don't let that stop you.

I know who sells the licences to drill, exploit and take the revenues for all sorts of North Sea resources which lie in Scottish waters. Those revenues will be heading to Holyrood instead shortly.

I don't understand why you think Westminster will still keep hold of them after Scottish independence. You still haven't explained how or why this will happen. And please don't resort to cheap insults ( the ignorant jibe ). So, could you please explain where you're getting the idea that Westminster will keep hold of oil fields and other resources in Scottish waters, should Scotland vote for independence ?

westernpromise

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I know who sells the licences to drill, exploit and take the revenues for all sorts of North Sea resources which lie in Scottish waters. Those revenues will be heading to Holyrood instead shortly.

I don't understand why you think Westminster will still keep hold of them after Scottish independence. You still haven't explained how or why this will happen. And please don't resort to cheap insults ( the ignorant jibe ). So, could you please explain where you're getting the idea that Westminster will keep hold of oil fields and other resources in Scottish waters, should Scotland vote for independence ?

This was all explained to you in post 13398 in this thread
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5432895/the-new-fat-scotland-thanks-for-all-the-fish-thread&page=670#13398

- which you clearly do not understand.

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

Again, your obsession with the Tories is blinding you to the quite obvious flaws in your argument for imminent independence.
A Boris led Tory Brexit would have to be truly disastrous to edge Scotland toward independence and even then I can’t see your average canny Scot compounding that disaster by opting to leave the U.K, a decision with way more potentially disastrous consequences than Brexit.
Is your dislike of English Tories all you’ve got?

It's been a combination of lots of things up until now. But yes, an enduring dislike for Tories, especially posh Eton ones, by the Scottish electorate is a big factor. Ignoring the Scottish Govt of whatever flavour is another. They've all come together very markedly over the last few years.

You’re gong to need way more than that.

Oh I don't think so. Maybe you'll listen to a Scottish Tory leaning commentator and Ruth Davidson fan instead of me but believe me Boris Johnson as PM is even single unionist person and party in Scotland's most ardent fear.

Prime Minister Johnson would have, I suspect, explosive consequences.

As matters stand, Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP have no persuasive or easy route to a second independence referendum, nor any compelling answers to the problems Brexit will cause for the practical aspects of independence. Even so, the most recent Times/YouGov poll put support for independence at 49 per cent...

..Nicola Sturgeon couldn’t ask for a better recruiting officer than Johnson. There’s a reason Ruth Davidson hates him..

..Brexit is a large part of this but not the only part, even if it should also be understood as a time bomb that has not yet gone off. Johnson would lob incendiaries onto an already burning house.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/05/anyone-but-boris/

Shakethedisease

westernpromise wrote: »

This was all explained to you in post 13398 in this thread
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5432895/the-new-fat-scotland-thanks-for-all-the-fish-thread&page=670#13398

- which you clearly do not understand.

Oh I understand it alright

The fact is that there is zero prospect of an independent Scotland being able to claim any existing North Sea oil or gas reserves. The acreages concerned were all apportioned among the relevant countries in the 1960s, and those countries included the United Kingdom. As the United Kingdom will still exist,

But the UK still existing.. in your opinion... doesn't give any claim to anything lying an independent Scotland's waters upon independence day. There'll be negotiations of course, but future revenues and licence allocations from indy day will go straight to Holyrood.

westernpromise

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Oh I understand it alright But the UK still existing.. in your opinion... doesn't give any claim to anything lying an independent Scotland's waters upon independence day. There'll be negotiations of course, but future revenues and licence allocations from indy day will go straight to Holyrood.

No, this was all explained to you in post 13411 https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5432895/the-new-fat-scotland-thanks-for-all-the-fish-thread&page=671#13411

"an independent Scotland's waters" are, at most, the 12 miles off its shores. That is not where the oil and gas are. They are in international waters, apportioned by multilateral treaties to the UK, Denmark, the Netherlands, and Norway. Scotland is not mentioned in those treaties.

Shakethedisease

You're mixing up the 12 mile zone and the EEZ ( Exclusive Economic Zone ).

An exclusive economic zone extends from the baseline to a maximum of 200 nautical miles

Which will be Scotlands as well after independence. Sorry.

A coastal nation has control of all economic resources within its exclusive economic zone, including fishing, mining, oil exploration, and any pollution of those resources.

I think we've been at cross purposes, but Scotland get those 200 nautical miles too.