NPS PCN Now £100

m1nt

Please see previous thread that was closed for being derailed.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5408814#topofpage

She submitted the appeal using the template as suggested via post.

Please see the letter she received, what action should she take now as she is still worried and is wanting to pay before it goes to £150 but I have told her to ignore the letter (Please confirm this is the correct action)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23317044/DSC_0850.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23317044/DSC_0851.JPG

The last letter she posted to them was:

Dear {name of IPC member, only IPC members for this version!!!}

Re PCN number:

I am not ignoring your charge for a purported parking infraction. As this is purely a charge (not a statutory penalty) issued under a purported contract and the driver has not been identified, I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

1. Who is the party that contracted with your company for the provision of their services? I require their contact details.
2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
3. As you are not the landowner please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that you have their authority to both issue parking charges and litigate in your own name.
4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract please provide your justification of this sum.
6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? Answer yes or no.
7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please provide a valid VAT invoice for this 'service'.
8. Please provide a copy of the signs that purportedly were on site which you contend formed a contract with the driver on that occasion.

If you believe you have a cause of action, send a Letter before Claim within the next 21 days and I will take advice and will respond.

In my opinion, there is a better alternative than legal proceedings, namely that we utilise the services of a completely independent ADR service suited to parking charges. This does not include the IAS appeal service - which lacks any transparency and possibly any independence from the IPC - unlike the alternative offered by the British Parking Association, POPLA, which is transparent and has been shown to be independent.

Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs or surcharges. I will not respond to those, so to involve another firm would be a failure to mitigate your alleged loss. In any case, the addition of any debt collector 'costs' is not my liability because the POFA 2012 can only potentially hold a registered keeper liable if certain provisions have been met and even then, the 'amount of the parking charge' is the only amount pursuable.

Yours faithfully,

Giant_Hogweed

That's brilliant!

(Well in my opinion anyway, wish I had a copy of that when my dispute started.....)

m1nt

Shes really worried about this and further letters and is considering paying the £100 - is she ok to ignore it?

Redx

depends what you mean by the word OK

its either pay or ignore , with guaranteed or possible consequences for each decision

pay up, it goes away in theory as the matter is settled, therefore it would and should stop the harassment as the topic would be closed due to the payment in full and final settlement

IGNORE means that they have to decide their next action, if any

their actions could include the following

1) more harassment , so more letters and threats

2) they may send an actual LBC , prior to court action

3) they may issue an MCOL via the court system

so they may proceed down the path to court, or actually issue court papers

they have 6 years to decide what to do, so they can and will use that time to continue to harass in one way or another , demanding payment, this may involve court , so OK may not be a correct term

so its important that she knows what each course of action will entail, we cannot tell you if she is "ok to continue to ignore" , we cannot predict what the PPC or their agents will do

its either pay up or front it out, but you should not be asking us what she should do, its not our responsibility to say or to tell you or her

we consider our job on a forum to put the facts before the OP, then they can decide how brave they are if they continue to ignore, or how not brave they are if they decide to pay up

I am a great believer in the fact that I have the right to defend myself in court, especially against parking scumpany bullies , so I would not pay, but I also would prefer to lay my case in front of a judge if it gets that far, letting them decide a fair outcome (hopefully fair anyway)

it is her decision to make, I have given you the facts, but I wont tell you that its "ok to ignore" (because it may not be)

but I have told her to ignore the letter (Please confirm this is the correct action)

we cannot tell you if this is the correct action, because you want black and white and there are only shades of grey in this topic , there is no CORRECT course of action

ps:- one month ago in post #6 http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5408814 coupon-mad told you that it was the ignore stage once the appeal had been sent

so you already knew that the next stage after the appeal was ignore as detailed in post #4 of the NEWBIES sticky thread, this means ignore for 6 years unless you get an LBC or an MCOL, at which point it needs dealing with

the IGNORE stage is a STALEMATE stage , no mans land, for 6 years unless they try a court case, so by ignoring you are agreeing that you may have to deal with it IN COURT sometime in the next 6 years, like is happening now with UKPC and CEL cases

so it is not a CORRECT option, its an INFORMED option based on assuming that a court case will ensue, or that it "times out" after 6 years

the CORRECT course of action is to wage war on PUREGYM until the charge is cancelled

m1nt

Thanks for the clear advice, if this was given or clear after reading the sticky we would have just paid IMO.

Can you clarify what an LBC or MCOL is please.

As we are going down the route of not informing them who the driver was, would it be a poor move to hassle pure gym in an attempt to cancel the parking ticket?

They were no help initially but she did receive the ticket on her induction and they didn't inform her to put her details into the system, she is no longer a member.

I worry that by telling them of her situation they would know she was the driver, is that correct?

Redx

m1nt wrote: »

Thanks for the clear advice, if this was given or clear after reading the sticky we would have just paid IMO.

Can you clarify what an LBC or MCOL is please.

those are clear in that sticky thread, and google can expand on those terms for you

Redx

if a driver parks up in the car park of a gym , provided for paying members, then uses the facilities of the gym as a paying member, the gym are responsible for advising the driver that car parking rules apply and should fully inform the driver of all the details that surround their membership, both inside and on the car park

if no attempt was made by the driver to defraud the gym or landowner and the driver was parked whilst using the onsite facilities then no loss has occurred to either the gym or the parking company

by being a member of this puregym the driver was using all of their facilities including the car park, as per the contract between them , and the gym need to ensure that the driver is fully aware of any rules that apply both inside and out, so is jointly and severally liable for the contract between all parties, especially if they hired the PPC

now if that driver was ME, I would not allow the gym to duck out of their responsibilities and there is NO WAY that I would pay a penny to a parking scumpany either, so I would not have paid and I believe this lady should not pay either - she has done nothing wrong so why pay a penny ?

I would see them in court if they wish to take it further, also including puregym and making them attend court to explain their lack of action and lack of pointing out the responsibilities to a new member

then let a judge decide what was fair and proper and decent in the circumstances

I believe that a judge would find in her favour

Coupon-mad

m1nt wrote: »

Thanks for the clear advice, if this was given or clear after reading the sticky we would have just paid IMO.

Really? It is in the sticky thread - about (rare) small claims and about tedious debt collector letters - but I am glad you found it unclear then! Just because you will get a pile of letters this year that everyone has ignored for a decade, you would have PAID a scumbag firm to avoid that?

You have only had a 'REMINDER' - big deal, everyone gets that. No-one here suggests you should pay money to these people:

https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/203549682-Northern-Parking-Services-North-East-Ltd-Trading-As-Northern-Parking-Services-

https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/categories/200555491-Debt-Collectors

These letters really are nothing to worry about. Redx was not telling you that this particular parking firm are likely to try a small claim! They are not. Most people just get the letter chain and those of us who were on the forum prior to the POFA in 2012 (when POPLA came in and made some appeals worth trying) have all ignored such letter chains.

Please tell your wife not to worry. I am just an ordinary non-legal trained Mum of four and I ignored the letter chains myself despite my husband fretting that they were about to send the boys round to seize our cat. I told him to get a grip (not on the cat) and the letter chain fizzled out after a few months of hysterical drivel I laughed at.

It never 'goes to £150' by the way. The letters say it does! The false sum goes up and down as they desperately hope you will fold.

As we are going down the route of not informing them who the driver was, would it be a poor move to hassle pure gym in an attempt to cancel the parking ticket?

They were no help initially but she did receive the ticket on her induction and they didn't inform her to put her details into the system, she is no longer a member.

I worry that by telling them of her situation they would know she was the driver, is that correct?

The sticky thread does say always complain to the retailer/landowner or gym, hotel; whoever is the idiot who took on the scumbags can also cancel the PCNs. It is the best way to get a PCN cancelled but you do have to persevere. In the complaint you can just say she was an 'occupant' of the car, it's easy enough to word it without saying 'I parked'.

Redx

as CM said , I wasnt telling you that this particular company will try a court claim, its unlikely but never say never, so I told you what could happen, emphasis on the word "could" , so that you had all the facts

then its your job or her job to decide what course of action to take based on the best factual advice available, but we cannot tell you what is correct or ok

for example, if you asked could this person go out for the day and is it correct that she would be safe in doing so, what is the answer ?

yes its likely that she will be safe, that its unlikely she will be knocked down by a heavy vehicle , so it is correct to go about her business

yet that advice would have failed to those poor people injured in the bin lorry accident in scotland some time ago, because the future cannot be predicted in such a manner. so as a young person you may think in black and white terms right now, but life is shades of grey, there is only one certainty I will let you figure that one out !!

yet my brother has a friend whose wife stayed in a lot, fell down the stairs and lost an eye, so is there ever a correct way to do things ? the film SLIDING DOORS is based on a similar premise, of different outcomes depending on a decision to be made

but it is a FACT that if you put enough pressure on the gym or landowner, that if they cancel the charge , its gone , finito , kaput - this is what should be focussed upon , but as keeper , so carefully word any complaints and ask them who they wish to represent them in court and what dates they are unavailable to go to court , ie:- the manager

as said above, be persistent and put the pressure on, make the GYM see the error of their ways so that they cannot be a*******

m1nt

Thanks for the above its taken into consideration. Previously complained to the manger and then puregym twitter and got nowhere, received no reply via e-mails etc so took advice of sending the letter and ignoring them.

What would the final amount cost if it went to court? I will inform her the debt collection amount will keep rising but its nothing to worry about.

Problem is of trying to cancel the ticket via contacting puregym now if I say my g/f wasnt informed on her induction about the charge etc they will now most likely ask for further detailed information to investigate it.

Edit - the reason why I would have just advised her pay it was because like you said all this is a grey area, I believed it was as simple as draft this reply, then they will cease to be able do anything/harass further unless they had evidence which they dont. To me I have spent far more time in trying to fight this (Looking at the sticky mutliple times, making threads, taking pictures etc) it would have been a lot more valuable to just pay the £30.

Redx

a typical cost if she failed in court is about £200

complain to head office CEO at puregym , in writing , recorded delivery

its their fault so make them suffer, like you and your GF are suffering