Boundary fence

DRP

mishkanorman wrote: »

Yes, its mentioned in the deeds that the T marks our responsibility. That combined with the home sellers report and the rest of the council built road all follow the same means we're certain its ours. The plan they have shown us is questionable as to whether its a t marker and it appears to be quite an old plan.

They are intending to give us the nice side and it will be 10ft wide 6ft high panels, so my husband has been informed.

The worry isnt the immediate fence installation its the years to come where we get problems.

what sort of problems do you anticipate in years to come?

on the face of it, you have been given a brand new fence, which you wont have to maintain. OK maybe you don't like the size of it, but if you're not exactly chummy with the neighbours a good fence may be a godsend.

'Good fences make good neighbours'.

Davesnave

mishkanorman wrote: »

The worry isnt the immediate fence installation its the years to come where we get problems.

Take photos, now, while your fence is still in situ.

Next, replace your fence with a rope, which is the new boundary marker. You may agree to maintain it. More photos.

Your neighbour can then erect their fence on their side of your rope. If it's a featheredge fence, it would be very difficult to erect with your fence still in the way, especially as they are giving you the 'nice' side.

Relax.

mishkanorman

DRP wrote: »

what sort of problems do you anticipate in years to come?

on the face of it, you have been given a brand new fence, which you wont have to maintain. OK maybe you don't like the size of it, but if you're not exactly chummy with the neighbours a good fence may be a godsend.

'Good fences make good neighbours'.

It should be that easy, they have moaned - lots - about the every day noise we make as a family. When I spoke to the neighbours friend who brought it up i mentioned that their cigarette smoke came into our house and whilst it wasnt something we felt the need to bring up it was one of those things you put up with as a neighbour (like the noise we make). A week or so later I found a large amount of fag ends along the fence line which only could have been put through the fence by them.

Theres banging on the walls and slamming doors too . . . . .

We originally said "even if its our fence you can have it, thats the end of it" We then got a message back saying they may not change the fence this year but one fence panel was badly damaged when lifted to access a drain, had our builders mentioned the damage caused. So even when they had it free and clear there were then further issues.

My worry is if we give up 'our' fence it will leave us open to your child/dog/cat/bush damaged our fence etc.

moneyistooshorttomention

The thing to bear in mind here too is how this saga would affect future owners of your house. Never agree to anything a future owner of your house wouldn't like - and have them sitting there getting upset at "If only the previous owner hadn't allowed the neighbours to get away with x - then I wouldn't have had a fight on my hands to restore the status quo".

Norman_Castle

mishkanorman wrote: »

My worry is if we give up 'our' fence it will leave us open to your child/dog/cat/bush damaged our fence etc.

Just tell them to put their own fence alongside yours. Its easier for you. Help prevents spurious damage claims and will make no difference to them as in their garden your fence will not be visible to them. If at some point in the future you decide you don't like the two fences you can remove yours.

Hope you returned the fag ends to their garden.

Land_Registry

Fences and boundaries are often the subject of much debate and you have touched on several of the key points that invariably crop up, namely T marks, neighbourly issues and what happens in the future.

T marks - these are often seen as the indicator of who is responsible for a specific boundary. The T marks have to be backed up by actual wording (covenant normally) in the deed as well though, as posted, otherwise they are just a mark on a plan. However in most cases no such markings/covenant exists and often where they do they were entered into many years ago and as such are unlikely to be binding on a current owner if the property has been sold/bought a few times.

I suspect the T markings/covenant being referred to here was between the original builder and first owner. It is in essence what is referred to as a 'personal covenant' in that it is something the purchaser agrees to do rather than a restrictive covenant where they must not do something. The difference with a personal covenant is that it does not run with the land as it is personal to the purchaser whilst a restrictive covenant binds the land and therefore anyone who subsequently owns it.

They are though a useful indicator as to how things were intended to be and as such can influence how everyone in the street views who is responsible for which fence - providing of course everyone knows the T marks + covenants are there

'Neighbourly issues' - in my experience the boundary/fence can be the weapon of choice when it comes to doing battle over other issues such as noisy children, pets, bonfires/bbqs when the washing is out and so on. As and when a fence needs replacing or someone wants to have an impact it's a chance 'do battle' - I am obviously over-stating that a little but I have seen many enquiries from neighbours that invariably refer to such matters at the same time as querying who owns or is responsible for a fence.

The future - your main focus it seems and a very valid one as neighbours change. You or your neighbour may sell up and move on and in essence what may have been agreed previously can move with you/them.

That's why I am always wary when advice is given to put up a fence or rope or some other 'boundary' feature on your own land or inside an existing fence - all too often you see threads on forums when a new neighbour arrives and removes the old fence thinking the rope for example is the boundary line and their seller must have put up the old fence.

That's not to say it can't work but it's important to formalise things with your neighbour in some way and of course any boundary dispute should be revealed to a potential buyer when you come to sell. Something else to consider.

So, if the T marks + covenant come form an old deed/document and the properties have changed hands a few times the odds are that they are not legally binding but are simply a useful indicator as to how things once were or intended to be - a solicitor can clarify the legally binding aspect for you

What your sellers told you when you bought can also help understand who has taken responsibility for a fence - that applies to your neighbours also as what other owners/neighbours have done before can help find a way forward

Once you have shared information/understanding hopefully you can agree a way forward - if they want to replace the existing 3ft fence with a 6ft one and you are happy for them to do that then it's probably a case of formalising how and when it can be done and ensuring that how it is positioned is agreed as you go along. All too often a fence erector may have to put it in a few inches shy of where the old one was so be aware as a few inches can also then become a matter of much debate/dispute so that too needs to be avoided.

If you get it right and everyone is 'happy' then it can probably do wonders for neighbourly relationships and may also provide a chance to resolve any other issues re noise, pets, kids etc at the same time. That's the best outcome though I guess but the key here is that this is very much a matter for neighbours to agree on.

I hope it works out for you both.

Davesnave

Land_Registry_representative wrote: »

That's why I am always wary when advice is given to put up a fence or rope or some other 'boundary' feature on your own land or inside an existing fence.

That's why i suggested putting the rope where the boundary is now, mainly because it sounds as if the replacement fence will be a featheredge with a 'nice' side, and there is no way that can be easily installed close to the existing boundary if a fence is in the way.

It's all about those neighbourly relations.;)

A rope can make a very effective permanent boundary marker. I have one on my drive, passing through wooden posts. Next door's Tesco delivery driver isn't great at backing, so there's a little leeway built in!

mishkanorman

Thanks for all thoughts and advice,

At the moment its been left that they cancelled the fence installation Friday and are looking into proving its their fence, we are happy its ours so the onus is on them really to show otherwise.

Davesnave

mishkanorman wrote: »

Thanks for all thoughts and advice,

At the moment its been left that they cancelled the fence installation Friday and are looking into proving its their fence, we are happy its ours so the onus is on them really to show otherwise.

So, it's a trip down to the garden centre shortly for them and perhaps a purchase of some nice leylandii?

moneyistooshorttomention

Davesnave wrote: »

So, it's a trip down to the garden centre shortly for them and perhaps a purchase of some nice leylandii?

That's one way to help figure out how well (or otherwise) the neighbours are thinking - if that boundary is very near to their house (ie because the resultant tree roots would be near to their house too).:cool: