Civil enforcement PCN

Ihateparkingfines

Hi

Please could I ask for some assistance from someone.

I have received a PCN from a private parking firm, and I feel this is unjust.

I parked at a hotel car park where my parents and grand parents where staying following a family funeral on 18/01/16. I went there for dinner, it was pitch black and completely missed signs telling me to register my Reg no at reception.

Now this is new at this hotel, and as I have discovered, the parking cowboy company have only been "managing" the car park for two months. This may be a mute point to make but I have anyway......

A month later I received a letter / PCN from civil enforcement ltd. I contacted them and also the hotel in question. So far despite several calls to the hotel, where they say they will help but have so far failed to call me back, nothing. Also my explanation to civil enforcement has been rejected and I now have my popla code.

I have not given up pestering the hotel and I will stay on them.

My question is this - on the PCN (parking charge notice) the allegation levied against me is "payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage".

Now, as far as I can tell, the only thing that I was required to do was register my Reg number with the hotel reception, not make a "payment".

Aside from the normal arguments that are helpfully in these forums eg inadequate signage, inflated invoices (not fines), authority to act, non compliance with laws etc etc, which are all arguments I may have to use, and to good effect. But, is this an example of a dodgy PCN?

I think this as there is no ticket machine as such.... So therefore no "payment" at least in terms of money CAN be made. Therefore, I feel there allegation is null and void.

Am I looking at this to simplistically?

Any feedback would be great.

Thank you

Redx

I wouldnt get too hung up on "what happened" at this stage, just start to draft your popla appeal after checking recent examples of other popla appeals (2016 appeals) by starting with post #3 of the NEWBIES sticky thread

this will be based on half a dozen legal arguments

in the meantime , complain in writing to the hotel or the CEO at head office and demand a cancellation anyway, but still do the popla appeal

dont miss the popla appeal deadline / expiry date

you can check this using your popla code on parking cowboys website

your moot point will be one of many you will be using

Ihateparkingfines

Thanks Redx, my draft is well under way and I have many a point to make and have already been back to the hotel to take a lot of photos to back me up. Thankfully these photos support my case with a erroneous sign in there to boot.

But I would like your thinking on my main point if I may please. The allegation made against me is flawed, not only in he term they have used but the meaning is confused and in my view does not match up with the sign at the hotel. I could not make a payment.... I could only provide my Reg number to the hotel. That legally, as this is contract law, would not add up and the allegation would not stand up either!

If not Redx, perhaps someone else could, have a view?

Redx

its likely to be a valid point that you should include, but other and better factors will be

no landowner authority/contract (no locus standii)
poor signage
not a gpeol (but different than Beavis)
NTK failures
POFA2012 failures
BPA CoP failures
anpr (or handheld camera ) issues
no contract due to what you have stated and other factors

ps:- IF you have stupidly given away the drivers details (by appealing as driver and not KEEPER) then POFA2012 wont apply so you appear to have lost a few key legal points there

your ideal scenario is a landowner cancellation asap

Ihateparkingfines

Thanks Redx - appreciated. I was just hoping I could nip this in the bud early doors and jog these cowboys on Asap. Enjoy your evening

Guys_Dad

You are in danger of tying yourself up in knots with poor experience of parking "law", if I can use that expression.

First of all, if the first you heard of the alleged contravention was 4 weeks after the event, you could have kicked it into touch there and then as the parking company has only 14 days to bring a claim against "the keeper". They didn't know who the driver was and lost their opportunity to nail the keeper. So what did you do? Gave them the driver's name to enable them to bring their claim.

You have asked our opinion on your main point about the signs and whether or not you can make a case on that. Well, of course we always advise doing so but, in the absence of photographic evidence, can't give specific advice. Are you 100% sure there was no charges at all mentioned anywhere?

Redx

Ihateparkingfines wrote: »

Thanks Redx - appreciated. I was just hoping I could nip this in the bud early doors and jog these cowboys on Asap. Enjoy your evening

you can , by getting the landowner to cancel it, asap

Ihateparkingfines

Thanks Redx and Guys dad.

I don't think I have stated that I am the driver yet I have just appealed.

As for the sign, nope no mention of charges at all. Just about a fine if you do not comply by having the relevant permit.

I have contacted the hotel on a number of occasions, and will continue to do so to get it cancelled.

Just because I have appealed against the PCN, does this effectively rule out the possibility of having this PCN revoked because they were late?

Ihateparkingfines

This is what I have sent so far

"Dear Sirs

Thank you for your letter dated 23 February 2016.

Whilst I am disappointed and unsurprised by your stance I shall appeal via popla.

With the benefit of the backing of the hotel in question, who I know have contacted you and asked you to cease this action (something that that you have failed to mention in your letter) and the knowledge of the "wafer thin" grounds and lack of detail supporting your supposed allegations I will be contesting your charge / fee.

Simple research would suggest that you will be unsuccessful with the exemption of wasting my time and yours.

You are aware of the depth of information widely available on the internet contesting your "fees" and the lack of legal grounds with which they are brought.

I would therefore kindly ask you for a final time to withdraw your charge / fee as soon as possible to bring this unfortunate circumstance to a conclusion.

I would appreciate your response soonest but will proceed with the popla route in the event that you choose not to withdraw this action.

Regards


Sent from my iPhone

On 20 Feb 2016, at 09:59, wrote:

Dear Sirs,

Vehicle Reg No:
PCN Issue Date: 18/02/2016
Incident Date: 18/01/2016
Incident location:

I have received a penalty charge notice with the above details from you.

I would like to appeal this PCN as I was visiting multiple paying guests at the hotel on the date in question and this can be proved. I will be making direct contact with the hotel to ask for their assistance in contacting you also to have this PCN revoked.

I also had dinner at the hotel on the evening in question so therefore I was a paying customer / guest and therefore in my view very much entitled to be there following a family funeral.

I am a little unsure as to what other information you would require to substantiate an appeal but I hope the above is sufficient. I will also ask the hotel to contact you to endorse this email.

Guys_Dad

Ihateparkingfines wrote: »

Thanks Redx and Guys dad.

I don't think I have stated that I am the driver yet I have just appealed.

Seems that you have admitted driving in your appeal or have made it a reasonable assumption. Mainly by the absence of anything to suggest to the contrary.

Ihateparkingfines wrote: »

This is what I have sent so far

I would like to appeal this PCN as I was visiting multiple paying guests at the hotel on the date in question and this can be proved. I will be making direct contact with the hotel to ask for their assistance in contacting you also to have this PCN revoked.

I also had dinner at the hotel on the evening in question so therefore I was a paying customer / guest and therefore in my view very much entitled to be there following a family funeral.

I am a little unsure as to what other information you would require to substantiate an appeal but I hope the above is sufficient. I will also ask the hotel to contact you to endorse this email.

You didn't say so in so many words I admit so you could be stretching it. Would POPLA see it that way? Don't know. IPC? 100% NO.

Redx

if CEL issued a popla code, leave them for now , only concentrate on the hotel or landowner for complaints

then check what your appeal said in response to the NTK, ensure it does not mention or infer who was driving, so no sentences starting with I , like " I parked there and wasnt told to book in the VRN at reception", or "I parked the car as I was attending a function"

the correct stance was " the driver parked up and the driver was not told to book in the VRN by reception on their terminal"

then start your popla draft based on all I and others have said

you seem to think something makes an invoice null and void, so let me tell you what does

a landowner cancellation

a win at popla

a win in small claims court

a "time out" after 6 years has elapsed

a cancellation by the parking company, in writing

if none of those have happened, the invoice is considered "live and ongoing"