Help Please - Flat Conversion Without Planning or Builing Regs

deFoix

Hi, I'd be really grateful for some advice as I'm a first time buyer in London. So far the whole process has been very stressful and it seems to be getting worse.

I put an offer in for a lovely top floor flat. The vendor is selling the whole house as 4 separate leasehold flats. I paid for searches and a survey however my solicitor has discovered that there is no record of building regulations approval or planning permission for the conversion. The vendors solicitor says this is because the conversion was done many years ago. The searches did reveal a London Building Act charge stating:

"Acceptance of proposals 21.4.1977 re-means of escape in case of fire in connection with alterations to form separate dwellings."

However the building regulations and planning section of the search does not reveal anything. I've contacted the council (building control and planning) by telephone and the have confirmed no records are in their system.

What are my options? Should I pull out and start looking again? The council planning department did say they could write a letter stating no enforcement action would be taken for lack of planning but I doubt Building Control would say the same.

Thanks Tim

Doozergirl

If we are talking about over 30 years ago, then it pre-dates the system we have in place now.
Building regulations were totally m different back then, which is why you see reference to what is in effect a builng regs submission under a local building act which was replaced by the Building Act in 1984 - where our current system was born! There will be no reference in building control, because it predates the Act!

No one would expect the flat to meet current regs now, so your presumption that building control would still have some interest in enforcement action is almost entirely going to be wrong.

Planning history may have to be found using a manual search requested directly from the planning office if it is old. But I would argue that these documents don't need to be found and are irrevelant when we pass a certain length of time - the build is clearly too old and established for any kind of attention to be drawn to it. If the council don't have computerised records going back x far, I'd say that they don't usually face those requests often enough to bother, and that they themeves don't care.

If this is a modern build, I would expect paperwork but I fear that you have an over zealous and underexperienced (or incompetant) solicitor. My house built in the late 30s. It won't meet current regs in many respects,and no-one is ever going to ask for the planning permission, if indeed there was any! There is definitely cut off point at which these requests become utterly irrelevant and your flat is past it.

Are you using a trusted local firm?

eddddy

Looking at things from a slightly different perspective...

You should be less concerned about the absence of a building regs certificate, and more concerned about the impact on the flat itself.

A flat converted 30+ years ago may have poorer thermal insulation, sound insulation, fire resistance, etc than one converted a few months ago - because building regs have evolved. It could also have 30 year old electrics, which are reaching the end of their life.

But because of this, the flat may be cheaper than a newer conversion. And many people are happily living in flats converted 30 years ago - it's just a matter of personal preference and personal budget.

deFoix

Thanks for your replies. I am using a very trusted firm and my solisitor is very experienced. I'll contact the Building Control and Planning and hopefully they'll confirm that no enforcement action would/could be taken.

The CML Hand book does required though that valid Building Regs. And Planning permissions are in place for the solicitor to issue the Certificate of Title. Also I've been told my bank may take issue with it and not release the mortgage funds.

Can I be sure that changes made before XXXX date are not requiring planning or control? I do I prove when the conversion was actually done?

How does a solicitor issue a Cert of Title without any of this documentation?

Im happy with the quality of the build as it's an old Victorian house and I'm on the top floor so I don't think the sound issues will be a problem for me. I'm happy to but in new wiring if necessary etc.

Thanks and regards,
Tim

davidmcn

Boler1985 wrote: »

I've been told my bank may take issue with it and not release the mortgage funds.

Well, I'm going to join the chorus of people here telling you otherwise. Nobody (reasonably) demands consents for works done in the 1970s, in the same way that you don't need to look for consents for the original construction of the house.

Boler1985 wrote: »

How does a solicitor issue a Cert of Title without any of this documentation?

By being sensible and taking a view on the matter. What the CML Handbook actually requires is:

If there is evidence of such a breach or matter but in your professional judgment there is no reasonable prospect of enforcement action...we will not insist on indemnity insurance and you may proceed.

Not directly relevant to you, but in Scotland the standard form of contract now deems any works over 20 years old as being irrelevant. If you want to know for sure what your solicitor's view will be, ask them now.

Boler1985 wrote: »

I'll contact the Building Control and Planning

If you want, but best to make it a very general enquiry and not to mention the specific address (just in case you end up wanting an indemnity policy).

deFoix

Thanks, yes it makes sense to me. Maybe my solicitor is being over cautious however I've read many posts on this forum where solicitors haven't even bothered to check for this documentation for newer conversions and building works and it's caused major problems. It does seem to be a bit of a grey area. My solicitor advised that indemnity insurance was not a good option as it doesn't resolve the fundamental issue. I've already contacted the council re the address (before I knew about invalidating any indemnity). I was told by planning they'd write a letter stating they're not interested in enforcement but I'm not sure of the wording. I'll contact the Building Control again and seek their advice.

Thanks.

AdrianC

Boler1985 wrote: »

Can I be sure that changes made before XXXX date are not requiring planning or control? I do I prove when the conversion was actually done?

It's not whether the work required BR or PP at the time - it's whether the council can take action over lack of it now - and they can't. Far too long has passed.

It's also not for you to prove how long ago it was done, but for them to prove it was done recently - and that would be impossible.

Boler1985 wrote: »

Thanks, yes it makes sense to me. Maybe my solicitor is being over cautious
My solicitor advised that indemnity insurance was not a good option as it doesn't resolve the fundamental issue.

Well, that shoots some of the cynicism down in flames! <grin>

Doozergirl

If your solicitor is so adamant, why aren't they looking for the planning permission and building regs for the Victorian house that your flat is situated in!!

Your solicitor has not seen the house and I'd say that they must have a long succession failed completions behind them if this is what they demand. I've bought and sold over 40 times, all but one over 30 years old and never had this arise for something so pointless. It has always been demanded that we provide certificates for the work we have done, but never for the original house and I have never had my solicitor demand those when we have bought either.

davidmcn has very kindly pointed out what the CML handbook says. I suggest you google it and show your solicitor than go on any more of a wild goose chase. The conversion even has building regs that pre-date building regs and they're still not happy!

I cannot fathom why so many solicitors are so ignorant of the dates and acts around building regs and planning.

There is no fundamental problem. No enforcement action can ever take place = no problem!!

deFoix

Thanks for the reality check and I'll take this up with him.

From his point of view though how does he know the vendor is being honest. For all anyone knows the vendor could have done the conversion 5 years ago and is just claiming it was many years ago. The point is there a not records.

davidmcn

Boler1985 wrote: »

From his point of view though how does he know the vendor is being honest. For all anyone knows the vendor could have done the conversion 5 years ago and is just claiming it was many years ago. The point is there a not records.

But there is a record from 1977. It would be rather odd for someone to have applied to building control for consent to convert in 1977 and then not followed it through by carrying out the work.

Does it look to you like it was done more recently? What does your surveyor think?

AdrianC

Boler1985 wrote: »

From his point of view though how does he know the vendor is being honest. For all anyone knows the vendor could have done the conversion 5 years ago and is just claiming it was many years ago. The point is there a not records.

We're talking about a conversion from one property to four. There ARE records. Council tax, for a start.