npower huge bills economy 7 immersion issues

ghostghost

Hi guys, hope you can help me. I moved into my two bed flat about a year and a half ago. Initially my bills were £80 month which I accepted and didn't send in meter readings for about 7 months. When I did, they said that I was 1grand in debt so consequently my direct debits have been absurdly high. My day use of electricity is massive despite not being at home during the day for most of the time.

The lower part of the water heater hasn't been coming on, whether this is due to the heater or some other reason I've had to use the upper part which has the boost function. So I expect this could explain some of the extra energy use and cost.

However for the last month I've hardly used the water heater as I've been cycling to work and showering there, my day use is still very similar to what it was.

It's difficult to tell if my storage heaters are the culprit. I'm assuming from what I've read online that they're wired separately and indeed look to be. I've tried turning them off over a weekend and then back on at night. It took them about two days to start warming up again.

I've spoken to npower who are sending an engineer out to check and reset the timing of the e7 switch. I'm also seeing a plumber tomorrow about the water heater to see what he thinks. My next step will probably be an electrician to make sure everything is wired up correctly.

I appear to have two fuse boxes with one connected to a blue box which my building caretaker tells me is the e7 switch. However this isn't connected to the side of the fuse box which controls the water heater timer. None of it is labelled so god knows where the storage heaters are attached to.

Does anyone have any idea where all my money/electricity is going? I have a few specific questions too:


1) Does the immersion heater for the economy 7 part need to be switched on by an external timer, ie the radio/teleswitch. On the timer connected to the heater it doesn't have the option to set off-peak time, however if I change the time on it the 'off-peak' light comes on at 0230 until 0600 but also between 1700 - 1800.

2) My meters are in a separate room in the building, the meter is electric. I've also seen the economy 7 dial which states the e7 leccy shoul come on between 1200 - 0700. Could this be faulty and triggering my storage heaters on at the wrong time? If so do I have some recourse for getting my money back from npower?

3) Do storage heaters only work during e7 time or can they be charging during the day? One is a really old beige creda one that doesn;t have a model number and the other is a sunhouse one.

Thanks for the help and apologies for the essay!

CashStrapped

Ok. One thing that jumps out at me is that you did not send in meter readings for 7 months.

Please tell me you sent in actual meter readings when you first moved in and opened the account?

If so, then great, that is one thing to exclude.

If you did not open the account with npower with an actual meter reading then they may have estimated one. This means you may have been charged for the previous occupents use. Especially if they did not give a reading when they moved out.

Secondly. You need to get the lower immersion element working. This is the e7 element, it will only come on at night during e7 hours. If it fails to come on the element may have failed and needs to be replaced.

There should be an E7 timer switch which automatically switches to e7 after a certain time. The storage heaters and e7 immersion element may only come on during these hours. However, from what I know, E7 timing set-ups can vary.

Thirdly, to clarify your actual energy use, you have to start taking daily readings of both meters. This will give you immediate information as to what you are using on a daily basis and when you are using it. With an e7 set-up you should be using 60% (preferably more) of your electric use during e7 hours. With hot water and heating, this should not be a problem.

In fact write down here all the meter readings you have taken and the dates you took them. Then we can work out your use. Ignore estimated readings as these are not helpful.

ghostghost

thanks for the reply.

Plumber's just been, he's coming round next week to replace the immersion and fit a new timer as this one has a mind of its own.

I didn't send a meter reading in when I first moved in. I realise how dumb this is and regret it now.

First estimated reading 27/10/14 when I moved in day 10816, night 7527. My meter was changed in the november after I moved in.

So here's my actual readings:

13/05/15: Day 17952, Night 12824
22/10/15: Day 19814, Night 14745
16/01/16: Day 22187, Night 17383
18/02/16 Day 22877, Night 18272

The meter's are in a separate room in the apartment and the caretake isn't in all the time so it's not possible to check daily. We get on quite well so I might ask him for the key.

CashStrapped

It is unfortunate about the fact you did not supply a meter reading when you moved in. You may have been lucky as the person leaving should have provided one. This would mean the estimate may not have been too far out. It could however mean you paid for some of their use.

Regarding your usage:

First, as you do not yet have a meter reading 1 year apart I can only calculate what you have used for a partial year. Do not forget to take a meter reading on 13/05/16. Then you will have accurate usage data for one year.

So based on the figures from 13/05/15 to 18/02/16 you have used in total

Day: 4925 KWH (22877-17952)
Night: 5448 KWH (18272-12824)

Total: 10,373KWH

Furthermore the E7 night useage percentage is around 52% (5448/10373)

As that calculation is less than a year, we can expect the total figure to be higher, maybe upwards of 13,500KWH (I revised this up).

High usage for an all electric property is said to be around 7500KWH. However there are many variables, your living habits, insulation etc. If you like the flat to be very warm and are in 24/7 then you will probably expect very high usage figures.

Next, your e7 use of 52% while not awful could be improved. Once you get the timing and e7 immersion sorted, this should go up. Just ensure the hot water tank is well insulated. You want to use as little heating and immersion on day rate so stay away from panel heaters and immersion boosts.

Next, go to a comparison site. Select your current provider and tariff and use the figure of 13,500kwh and a night use of 50% for comparison and see what comes up.

I would be interested to know the result!

P.S what tariff are you on at the moment? Are you sure you are on an E7 tariff/meter as in your first post you mention the off peak has two time periods. This suggests it could be an E10 set-up.

Cardew

I just over 9 months you have used 10,373kWh of which 5,448kWh(52%) were off-peak(night units).


Considering you had problems with your immersion heater and were using peak(day) rates for hot water that isn't a bad percentage.


Your consumption in kWh will not have been higher because of the faulty immersion heater, but obviously the cost will have been higher because of using peak rates to heat water, and if your E7 timer is wrong some of your heating might be at peak rates.


However with 3 coldish months(Feb to May) to come you look likely to use well over 14,000kWh pa in total. The repairs to your immersion and possible timing change are NOT going to reduce that overall consumption; merely improve the percentage of off-peak units.


Even if you manage to get your off-peak percentage up to 60% you are going to be spending over £100 a month.

Cardew

CashStrapped wrote: »

As that calculation is less than a year, we can expect the total figure to be higher, maybe around 12,000KWH.

.

I agree with most of your post, but even pro-rata the consumption of 10,373kWh in 9 months 5 days works out at over 13,500kWh pa.

High usage for an all electric property is said to be around 7500KWH.

The average consumption for a property with gas is 13,500kWh gas and 3,300kWh electricity. Given boiler efficiency, the 13,500kWh might reduce to 10,000kWh, but that still makes an average consumption around 13,300kWh. So I would dispute 7,500kWh pa for an all electric property is high.

CashStrapped

Cardew wrote: »

I agree with most of your post, but even pro-rata the consumption of 10,373kWh in 9 months 5 days works out at over 13,500kWh pa.

I agree, that was the only bit I did not calculate and just guessed.

Cardew wrote: »

I would dispute 7,500kWh pa for an all electric property is high.

Interesting you say that. For this figure I used the latest OFGEM figures for an all electric (class 2) property. I thought they sound a bit low for "high use" but what do I know. Their previous high use figure was 7800KWH so I went for 7500KWH. For a 2 bedroom flat, I think this would be a good ball park figure though. Taking into account the caviats I posted above (lifestyle/insulation etc.).

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/gas/retail-market/monitoring-data-and-statistics/typical-domestic-consumption-values

Here is the document if you are interested.

Cardew

CashStrapped wrote: »

I agree, that was the only bit I did not calculate and just guessed.



Interesting you say that. For this figure I used the latest OFGEM figures for an all electric (class 2) property. I thought they sound a bit low for "high use" but what do I know. Their previous high use figure was 7800KWH so I went for 7500KWH. For a 2 bedroom flat, I think this would be a good ball park figure though. Taking into account the caviats I posted above (lifestyle/insulation etc.).

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/gas/retail-market/monitoring-data-and-statistics/typical-domestic-consumption-values

Here is the document if you are interested.

The way I read that data is the electricity figures given are for those households with gas as well.


There is nothing to indicate that these figures are for an 'all electric property'. Indeed with the document giving electricity consumption as low as 2,000kWh pa, that amount could hardly be expected to cover 'normal' electricity usage AND heating and lighting.


I see no reason why the energy used* in a property with gas should be any less than an all electric property.


* Obviously the efficiency of boiler will have to be taken into account - so 10,000kWh consumed by a boiler operating at 80% efficiency, would be comparable to 8,000kWh of electricity consumption.

CashStrapped

Cardew wrote: »

The way I read that data is the electricity figures given are for those households with gas as well.

There is nothing to indicate that these figures are for an 'all electric property'. Indeed with the document giving electricity consumption as low as 2,000kWh pa, that amount could hardly be expected to cover 'normal' electricity usage AND heating and lighting.

If you read the supporting documents, they define class 2 properties as all electric. Specifically properties with with "switched storage heaters and immersion loads such as E7, E10...". They also debated if they should release the e7% splits of the class 2 properties.

So the "Electric Class 2" figures are certainly in reference to all electric properties.

I have been looking for typical usage figures for E7 properties for a while. So I made sure these numbers related to them before I posted.

These are also the same figures that utility companies use as part of their TCR calculations as of September 2015. They update them every year.

I would surmise that the reason why the total energy used is lower for E7 properties is that the majority of properties with gas and electric are usually houses. I would assume the majority of properties with e7 and all electric set-ups will be smaller flats. But that is just a guess.

Maybe someone should email them to question how they collated their data.

In the mean time, I see no alternative figures available so if I am going to use any source, and quote figures, I think that OFGEM is a reliable one.

If you find an alternative source, please let me know.

Cardew

I cannot see any reference to 'All Electric' properties.

The link you gave comes under 'Gas' and the table is headed:

Typical Domestic Consumption Values (TDCVs) are industry standard values for the annual domestic gas and electricity used by a typical consumer.(my bold)

It is simply not plausible that a 'low gas user' has a gas consumption of 8,000kWh and ?? kWh electricity. However a low all electric user has a total consumption(including heating and lighting) of 2,000kWh pa(class1) or 2,500kWh(class 2)

Typical Domestic Consumption Values 2015

kWh TDCVs
Gas Low 8,000
Medium 12,500
High 18,000

Electricity: Profile Class 1
Low 2,000
Medium 3,100
High 4,600

Electricity: Profile Class 2
Low 2,500
Medium 4,300
High 7,200

These are also the same figures that utility companies use as part of their TCR calculations as of September 2015. They update them every year.

The figures Utility companies use each year as average are 12,500kWh gas and 3,100kWh electricity(Nov 2015), last year was 13,500/3,200kWh.

CashStrapped

Look, I do not know what else to say except.... read the supporting document.

Just because the link has "gas" in it has nothing to do with what the document is about.

If you still do not believe me, email OFGEM. There is no point debating me as I am just quoting their documents. I am not giving an opinion or making them up.

This is the supporting document link. If you look on the original link page, it is also there for you to click on too.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2015/05/tdcvs_2015_decision_1.pdf

If you still can't see it [the reference to class 2 properties], look at bottom of page 2. Class 2 (reference 8). It goes on...as I said above ...to talk about publishing the typical E7 % split in "class 2" properties, but some companies objected, so they did not.

Furthermore, the current TCR figures you quoted at the end of your post match the Electric (Class 1) figures quoted in the document. So we can see that the Class 1 figures in the document are correct and are the ones currently used for comparing gas and electric (this is what I meant in the bit you quoted from my post).

I do not know what figures comparison sites use for the TCR when comparing E7 electric only properties. The fine print on the TCR information does not mention it, so I do not know. Again, maybe email OFGEM.

[Edit] I just tested this. When I use a comparison site and select to compare an E7 tariff and then look at the tariff information, they do not give a TCR for electric only. It just says N/A. So they refuse to give any TCR information for E7 comparisons. I have no idea why.

Personally, I could not care less if you think it is plausible or not because I am not making the numbers up. These are OFGEM'S numbers! If I was just plucking numbers out of thin air I could understand, but I am not.

I can understand why you think that 2500kwh sounds too low. Yet, they are the figures they are quoting, so in the absence of my own empirical data (or data you have provided), I am happy to accept them!

As I said in a previous post, I would surmise the following:

You are comparing average figures for properties with Gas and Electric (which are probably small houses to large detached houses) to the typical figures for all electric properties. However electric only E7 properties are mostly made up of much smaller one and two bedroom flats.

You are assuming that the properties for Gas an Electric typical figures are the same ones used for the Electric only typical figures.

It could be assumed, from what I have read in that document, that OFGEM gather data specifically relating to electric only "class 2" properties. These properties, as I said, tend to be much smaller flats and therefore use a lot less energy to heat etc.

I have no idea if that is the case, it is just a educated guess. If you want the answer, email OFGEM and ask how they got the figures.

Your argument is with them and how they came to those figures, not with me!

If you get any answers, do let me know.

I also think we have hijacked this thread somewhat! Whoopse..