Rented Flat, Own Space

TxxxFxxx

Hi everyone,
I have read many threads here as well as Newbee thread. Thanks for everyone's contribution I roughly know what to do, one week more till day 21 and will follow the process then.
I have searched relevant key words "own space" but most of them are owners or Tenancy Agreement does not indicate any contract.
Here is my case

PPC- UKPC
Tenant of a flat. Underground gated parking, allocated space.
Tenancy Agreement says: "to comply with any rules and regulations relating to access to and use of the car parking space as may be imposed by the building management."

Reason for PCN:"Parked in a residents' parking area without clearly displaying a valid residents' parking permit"

Landlord issued a permit but expired last year. Forget to renew it, old permit displayed in car when PCN issued.

Complaint already made to management, but still preparing for appeal.

Grounds of Appeal:
1. Keeper Liability once NTK come through.
2. landowner’s authority
3. insufficient/invalid signage
4. Genuine Pre-estimate of Loss

I don't think UKPC will allow appeal so I will use the template to get the POPLA code and come back for more advice once it is with POPLA.
I wont argue to opt out of the scheme but will still asking them to proof landlord authority

I have upload the signage on the gate and inside the car park.
Is clamping & removal statement on the door also a argue point?("If valid and dated permit is not displayed, your vehicle will be clamped and removed".)
(It seems I cant post links, any other ways of upload imgs?)

Did I miss anything from my research? I think keeper liability and GPEoC are my best chance?
Sorry if anything similar has happened recently that I missed.
Any advice is appreciated.

Ralph-y

hi and welcome to the forum .........

to show a pic you need to host the pic some where like photobucket or tiny pic

then post up the url

but change the http bit to hxxp and

one of the regulars will correct it for you .....


as for the first appeal ..... be careful that you do not give away who was driving !

the appeal in the newbies thread has been written for such

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822

please read through as it will explain much

good luck



Ralph:cool:

Coupon-mad

Keeper liability and landowner authority are the likely winners but there's only ever one chosen by POPLA. We throw them all in to make sure.

The signage point with UKPC is also strong because their signs are never legible on site, just pale (use their own photo against them at POPLA stage). You will find it if you Google 'UKPC photos' then put your details in, there's your evidence of the rubbish sign.

Keeper Liability once NTK come through.

No NTK is likely to come through - that's the point of appealing at this deliberate time after the windscreen PCN. You can leave it until day 25 or 26 with UKPC because you will be submitting your appeal template online to them, so it's immediate.

You might get an email or letter asking desperately who was driving but ignore that and wait. The rejection letter & POPLA code will arrive.

Fruitcake

TxxxFxxx wrote: »

Hi everyone,
I have read many threads here as well as Newbee thread. Thanks for everyone's contribution I roughly know what to do, one week more till day 21 and will follow the process then.
I have searched relevant key words "own space" but most of them are owners or Tenancy Agreement does not indicate any contract.
Here is my case

PPC- UKPC
Tenant of a flat. Underground gated parking, allocated space.
Tenancy Agreement says: "to comply with any rules and regulations relating to access to and use of the car parking space as may be imposed by the building management."

Reason for PCN:"Parked in a residents' parking area without clearly displaying a valid residents' parking permit"

Landlord issued a permit but expired last year. Forget to renew it, old permit displayed in car when PCN issued.

Complaint already made to management, but still preparing for appeal.

Grounds of Appeal:
1. Keeper Liability once NTK come through.
2. landowner’s authority
3. insufficient/invalid signage
4. Genuine Pre-estimate of Loss

I don't think UKPC will allow appeal so I will use the template to get the POPLA code and come back for more advice once it is with POPLA.
I wont argue to opt out of the scheme but will still asking them to proof landlord authority

I have upload the signage on the gate and inside the car park.
Is clamping & removal statement on the door also a argue point?("If valid and dated permit is not displayed, your vehicle will be clamped and removed".)
(It seems I cant post links, any other ways of upload imgs?)

Did I miss anything from my research? I think keeper liability and GPEoC are my best chance?
Sorry if anything similar has happened recently that I missed.
Any advice is appreciated.

You could write to tell the DVLA that a parking scumpany is threatening clamping of vehicles on private land, something that is now unlawful. Take pics of all the signs for evidence of this and your PoPLA appeal.
I think there was a time limit of about two years when POFA 2012 outlawed clamping to allow parking scumpanies time to change all their signs, but I'm not 100% sure about this. If it is true, then you should complain to the BPA and DVLA about this "trying to obtain money by deception."
Complaining to local press, council, and Trading Standards may be an option as well.

TxxxFxxx

as for the first appeal ..... be careful that you do not give away who was driving !

the appeal in the newbies thread has been written for such

Thank you Ralph, Yes I will use the BPA template with nothing changed.

but change the http bit to hxxp and

one of the regulars will correct it for you ....

Thanks. Here are the links
hxxp://postimg.org/image/mlven97qd
This is the link on the parking gate. However they could say someone else put the sign on as it is a separate one, if they really dont have a bottom limit on morality.

use their own photo against them at POPLA stage

Thank you Coupon-mad! Yeah I just checked the photo evidence again.
hxxp://postimg.org/image/szifsr3fh
The tiny little sign on the far left corner is the UKPC sign.
and
hxxp://postimg.org/image/xu9m4ep63
Yes, this is their evidence photo of sign, no one could see the sign clearly if they cant provide better ones.

It is funny you cant find worse cameras then theirs these days. My own evidence are far clearer and they are now destroyed.:beer:

No NTK is likely to come through

Thanks again Coupon-Mad,That's even better. Who doesnt like a solid win point. I'm just assuming the worst case here.
However do I need to wait until day 56 and then appeal to POPLA in this case?
Or a rejection letter with POPLA code will automatically mean they messed up and forget to issue NTK?

Fruitcake--Many thanks for the advise. Will look into POFA 2012 and file up a complaint.

Coupon-mad

UKPC's signage evidence - hilarious - Googling 'UKPC photos' and popping in your PCN/VRN on that page, always helps the appellant!

http://postimg.org/image/szifsr3fh

http://postimg.org/image/xu9m4ep63

Hands up who can read any terms? Anyone?

Hands up who can read the amount of the parking charge? Nope? No contract formed then.

However do I need to wait until day 56 and then appeal to POPLA in this case?

You have to do the first appeal now, at the right time. Work it out - this is why a couple of years ago, I started to advise appealing windscreen tickets around day 26. Then factor in the PPC thinking about or ignoring the appeal for anything between two days and two months, then even if they are very quick to reject (UKPC are slow) you still get ANOTHER 28 days to appeal to POPLA.

By the time the PPC see the POPLA appeal it's waaaaaay past day 56!

TxxxFxxx

Hi guys, I'm back with an update of the above case (PCN on a residential car park).

Appealed using template on day 26 on their website as register keeper.

Received an letter yesterday from them asking me to provided a copy of valid permit.
Not sure if they recognised the template and want to settle this or it is another trick they are playing.

But I intend to ignore this letter and get a POPLA code.

What do you guys think?

I have attached the letter.
hxxp://tinypic.com/r/15mxrmb/9

Fruitcake

TxxxFxxx wrote: »

Hi guys, I'm back with an update of the above case (PCN on a residential car park).

Appealed using template on day 26 on their website as register keeper.

Received an letter yesterday from them asking me to provided a copy of valid permit.
Not sure if they recognised the template and want to settle this or it is another trick they are playing.

But I intend to ignore this letter and get a POPLA code. The longer this takes the better chance you have of getting past day 56 without a NTK.

What do you guys think?

I have attached the letter.
hxxp://tinypic.com/r/15mxrmb/9

Just as C-M predicted. It's a fishing exercise in the hope you will respond and give away the driver's details.


Continue to ignore until you get a rejection and PoPLA code.

Coupon-mad

Standard guff, ignore it indeed. Wait and you will get your POPLA code anyway.

I know because I've done this before. Let them waste their time!

TxxxFxxx

Hello guys, just when I almost forget there is a parking appeal, I received my POPLA code last week for a parking ticket issued in January. They are really really slow

So I have drafted my POPLA appeal.

1.The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012 - no keeper liability
No “notice to keeper received” therefore not compliant with POFA 2012.
The alleged infringement occurred on 30/01/2016 and the NTK was required to reach me by 26/03/2016. As none of the mandatory information set out by Schedule 4 paragraphs 8 and 9 of the PoFA has been made available to me as Registered Keeper the conditions set out by paragraph 6 of Schedule 4 has not been complied with. Therefore there can be no keeper liability.

2.No standing or authority to pursue charges nor form contracts with drivers
I believe that this Operator has no proprietary interest in the land, so they have no standing to make contracts with drivers in their own right, nor to pursue charges for breach in their own name. In the absence of such title, UKP C must have assignment of rights from the landowner to pursue charges for breach in their own right. A commercial site agent for the true landholder has no automatic standing nor authority in their own right which would meet the strict requirements of section 7 of the BPA Code of Practice.

3.The signage was inadequate so there was no valid contract formed

(3.1) The notice on car park entrance is not a 'sign' nor does it communicate full contractual terms & conditions. It also threatened to clamp and removed vehicle which is unlawful and clearly breaching Section 56 of POFA 2012.

(3.2) At the time of the contravention no signage was clearly visible by the vehicle. Unreadable signage breaches Appendix B of the British Parking Association’s (BPA) Code of Practice.

4. The NTD is non-compliant with POFA 2012, as the "period of parking" is not specified, just the "date and time of event". The latter, being a single instant, does not give any information as to whether the driver was given enough time to consider the contract.

5. The amount requested on the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) does not represent a Genuine Pre Estimate of Loss of a resident parking area.


And here is the picture of entrance signs I intend to include in evidence.
hxxp://postimg.org/image/6062zef17/

Any advice is appreciated.

Coupon-mad

The amount requested on the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) does not represent a Genuine Pre Estimate of Loss of a resident parking area.

GPEOL is not an appeal point any more.

You need to show how this case differs from the Beavis case.

You need a lot more about signage.

I recommend quoting 7.3 of the BPA CoP in the landowner authority appeal point.

Here are some examples with more detailed attacks on signs and the other points:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5442143

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/70636374#Comment_70636374

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/70759770#Comment_70759770

HTH