Help with POPLA appeal

wahooanna

Hi!

I am in desperate need of help with making my POPLA appeal for a parking fine I received - £100 or £60 if paid within 2 weeks.... Here's the story;

I received a parking fine (from Parking Ticketing Ltd - member of BPA) in a private car park outside my work building, which I have a parking permit for. The car park only has about 8-10 spaces and are strictly reserved for people with permits who work in the building. As the parking bays are slanted, it is easier to park nose-first into the spaces, and therefore I keep my parking permit stuck to my back window. I've worked here for 2 years and I've never had a problem with this until a couple of weeks ago when I received the fine (the rear of my car was to a wall so the warden didn't see my permit). The signs around the car park say that a permit must be displayed at all times in the windscreen (doesn't specify front or back).

On the evidence photos taken only from the front of the car, you can't see my permit on the rear window as it's blocked by the rear view mirror inside the car if that makes sense. I appealed and thought I made a good point with photos of the permit and of it actually on my car but I was rejected on my first appeal. I'm now looking to appeal with POPLA and don't want to get rejected again - what would be a good way to appeal other than saying that it was definitely on my car the whole time? Can I make a point about pre-estimated loss, as technically there isn't any as it's not a paid car park and only so many permits for office employees?

I really have no idea other than a bit of research I have done the past couple of weeks..so any help/advice would really be appreciated!

Coupon-mad

Did you give away who was driving?

There's a PTL POPLA decision case here where they tried to get £120 which is above the amount on the signs. Did they send a letter demanding £120?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/70439198#Comment_70439198

His thread link is also shown which gives you his example POPLA appeal, although you cannot use 'No Genuine pre-estimate of loss' at all so scrap that, and if you've admitted who parked(which a keeper should not have done) then you can't use non-compliance with the POFA either.

You would do better to do something simple like get some pics of a sign with a tape measure or ruler next to it:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/70365057#Comment_70365057

Make sure any picture you take next to the sign close up, only shows half (or less) of the signage wording, with a ruler or tape measure at the side and not a 'clear picture' of the whole sign which might help PTL! This will become part of your 'unclear signage' argument as well as saying the sign does not actually state which windscreen the permit is to be displayed in so the driver has alwasy complied with the sign and has no obligation for it to be in the front (you cannot imply or assume terms from a sign which are not there, in fact it's to the contrary in contract law, the interpretation which most favours a consumer must apply).

Show us your draft POPLA appeal based on others you read. Just simply read back twenty or more pages on this forum and pick out the most recent POPLA examples on POPLA appeal threads. Not PTL ones, but any permit ones. There are LOADS from Feb/March alone just aiting for you to read them a few pages back. Not expecting you to read every thread, just every POPLA appeal thread about permits.

Fruitcake

Did you appeal as driver or keeper? Hopefully the latter.


Read the NEWBIES thread and select the relevant parts of successful PoPLA appeals you will find in Post 3, as well as the POPLA Decisions thread at the top of the page. Start with the most recent and don't use anything older than about November/December of last year.


Use all the appeal points you can find: -


Not the landowner, no contact with the driver, no standing to issue charges in their name, inadequate signage (especially the bit about not defining which windscreen,) no loss as you had a valid permit.
If you appealed as keeper then add non POFA 2012 compliant NTK but you will need to compare the NTK with the relevant part of POFA to point out which bits don't comply.


Have you complained to your employer as well? Do you have a Union rep who could help?

wahooanna

I appealed as the keeper and driver unfortunately as the options are limited when you appeal online and it doesn't allow you to choose 'keeper but not driving'...


Thanks for your replies, I'm really not very good with all of the technical language. I haven't received any letters from them yet demanding any money - as I appealed within 14 days it is frozen at £60 unless I appeal and lose then it will go up to £100. Do you think my best option is to go with the unclear signage argument then?

Could you explain a little more about this please "If you appealed as keeper then add non POFA 2012 compliant NTK but you will need to compare the NTK with the relevant part of POFA to point out which bits don't comply" as not really sure what it means!

I'll start looking through other people's appeals to see if I can take bits from them, just not sure what applies to my case as I haven't found many similar?

Thanks!

bodrulm123

I too without knowing appealed as the driver. Check the thread posted by my self for LDK parking in LIDL, there is a POPLA appeal done with the help of Coupon-Mad, perhaps you can use some of the points to help you draft a POPLA appeal or give you a better understanding.:)

Coupon-mad

wahooanna wrote: »

I appealed as the keeper and driver unfortunately as the options are limited when you appeal online and it doesn't allow you to choose 'keeper but not driving'.

Should have posted an appeal instead then, but too late now. Next time research first.

Thanks for your replies, I'm really not very good with all of the technical language. I haven't received any letters from them yet demanding any money - as I appealed within 14 days it is frozen at £60 unless I appeal and lose then it will go up to £100.

It doesn't go up because you won't be paying it even if you lose at POPLA. Get wise. Stop looking at that 'discount' as if it is some sort of bargain. No-one here pays these even if losing at POPLA.

Could you explain a little more about this please "If you appealed as keeper then add non POFA 2012 compliant NTK but you will need to compare the NTK with the relevant part of POFA to point out which bits don't comply" as not really sure what it means!

You have binned that option completely, by saying who was driving. It says 'if you appealed as keeper' but you didn't.

I'll start looking through other people's appeals to see if I can take bits from them, just not sure what applies to my case as I haven't found many similar?

You do not need 'similar' circs, it is not about that. All about the tiny writing on unseen signs (get a few pics with a ruler or tape measure next to the lettering to show it is far smaller than the BPA Code of Practice says it must be in Appendix and things like 'no landowner authority'.

wahooanna

Coupon-mad - thanks for your reply....

1) I did research and came to the conclusion that I would lose the first appeal with the parking company, so now moved on to seeking advice for my next appeal. I only found this thread after I sent off my first appeal!

2) Why would I not be paying it if I lose (genuine question), what's the point of appealing if I don't plan on paying at all? I am aware the discount is not in any way a bargain as I'd much rather keep my £60 obviously...What happens when you don't pay, how often do they go to court etc? I'm a worrier so that's the reason I'm a little anxious about the whole situation.

3) Technically I did appeal as the keeper, but also the driver, hence asking for more info on "non POFA 2012 compliant NTK", as I wasn't sure what this meant and didn't know it wasn't an option as the driver.

4) I'm going to check the signs when I'm back at work...do you know what the font size has to be? If that is all in check with the signs is my last option to argue the lack of information about whether the permit can be displayed on the back or front window? Want to get this all clear before I start on writing up the appeal!

5) What happens after I inevitably lose my POPLA appeal?!

wahooanna

Ps. I found the info on font size and pretty sure it's bigger than 60mm on the sign

Coupon-mad

wahooanna wrote: »

2) Why would I not be paying it if I lose (genuine question), what's the point of appealing if I don't plan on paying at all?

The point of appealing is to get it quashed to avoid this load of old rubbish for years:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5026523

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5035663

Such a boring subject. Tedious debt collector letters.

What happens when you don't pay,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/89511704@N03/8145428304/

Tedious debt collector letters!

how often do they go to court etc?

From: 01-OCT-2012 To 31-MAR-2014 (from a FOI request found on Google) PTL themselves started just 44 small claims. That is a TINY amount in 18 months, compared with the thousands of stupid fake PCNs they issue every year. And here the BMPA tells you:

http://www.bmpa.eu/court.html

''In the three months to June 2015, there were 870,000 private parking tickets issued. In the same period some 8000 Court claims issued. So you have a 1% chance (1 in 100) of getting a court claim.''

That's GENERALLY, not just with PTL, and the figure is higher than it should be because ParkingEye sue loads of people. Other parking firms do not so you have a MUCH less than 1% chance of being picked out of thousands of names on PTL's database who have never paid the scammers.

4) I'm going to check the signs when I'm back at work...do you know what the font size has to be?

Google British Parking Association code of Practice, read the latest version and go to Appendix B. There is a table of measurements there. Nice and clear and can be used in your favour at POPLA.

If that is all in check with the signs

It won't be - look particularly at the size of the £100 and the terms. Not the headings.

... is my last option to argue the information about whether the permit can be displayed on the back or front window? Want to get this all clear before I start on writing up the appeal!

No, you have more. That is ONE point, yes, to show POPLA there was no contravention of the terms on the sign. But there are others as you will find on every other POPLA Appeal on threads here. There are POPLA appeal threads on every single page going back to the year dot - but just look at 2016 examples on the first twenty pages of the forum or so, easy to spot from their thread titles.

What happens after I inevitably lose my POPLA appeal?!

It is far from inevitable. PTL are quite rubbish at evidence to POPLA. If you do lose, you go back to ignore mode and enjoy those tedious debt recovery letters you were hoping to side-step! I've ignored them myself before POPLA existed, in 2009 - 2011 when I got a few fake PCNs myself. Nothing happened, the sky did not fall in. My credit rating remained intact. No-one came knocking (they can't, they are not bailiffs).

wahooanna

Ok thank you for your help, much appreciated at I feel a bit more at ease. Need a whole day to sit and write my appeal then! Will update

wahooanna

Just another quick question on here if anyone can answer - can a landowner cancel a parking ticket without any dispute or have they basically handed everything over to the parking company? The landowner has written a letter for me, backing up my case and saying that I do have a valid permit but not sure if it would be way better for him to go directly to them for me?