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Is EU fiscal integration the only way forward?

13

Comments

  • danothy
    danothy Posts: 2,200 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker
    antrobus wrote: »
    Why do we have to pick the same method of synchronisation as someone else? Can't we have our own method if it suits us better?

    The same method of synchronisation? What method of synchronisation should we pick that is different to the method other EU members use to synchronise the organisation of society across Europe? Or did you not intend to get that meta?
    antrobus wrote: »
    As far as I'm concerned the UK can reject EU fiscal union and yet still be on the same page as the rest of Europe. Perhaps it would be a different paragraph. I don't know. It was your metaphor. Don't blame me if it doesn't make any sense.

    Don't blame me if you don't understand it. You've already equated the synchronisation between the EU member states of the way they organise society to the idea that people make identical choices within that society.
    If you think of it as 'us' verses 'them', then it's probably your side that are the villains.
  • danothy
    danothy Posts: 2,200 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker
    antrobus wrote: »
    You could indeed do both. But whether you'd want would depend on the choices on offer. You could indeed for example, both stick your hand in the fire and drink a glass of water. But just because you could, doesn't mean that you should.

    The implication being that involvement in international integration could be an inherently bad thing.

    I see the value in it.
    If you think of it as 'us' verses 'them', then it's probably your side that are the villains.
  • Thrugelmir
    Thrugelmir Posts: 89,546 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Deutsche Bank shares are down 46% in past 3 months. Openly hostile to ECB policy. Huge CDS exposure estimated to be 3 times the size of the entire German economy. Are we in for another financial crisis. This time in Europe.
  • antrobus
    antrobus Posts: 17,386 Forumite
    danothy wrote: »
    The same method of synchronisation? What method of synchronisation should we pick that is different to the method other EU members use to synchronise the organisation of society across Europe? Or did you not intend to get that meta?....

    Actually the synchronisation we are talking about only directly effects EZ members. And we haven't even got anywhere near stage one yet, not being in the Euro. Which is kinda' a prerequisite for fiscal union.

    But leaving all that aside, isn't it bl00dy obvious? You leave the EU. Then you pick your own method of 'synchronising society'. Whatever that means. :)

    danothy wrote: »
    ...Don't blame me if you don't understand it.

    Oh, I understand it. I'm just making fun of you.
    danothy wrote: »
    ....You've already equated the synchronisation between the EU member states of the way they organise society to the idea that people make identical choices within that society.

    You're the one that wrote "Yeah, because being on the same page as everyone else is so undesirable." It's not my fault that when you said "everyone else" you apparently didn't mean "everyone else" but actually really meant 'every other country in the EU except Denmark, and perhaps Sweden'.
  • CLAPTON
    CLAPTON Posts: 41,865 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    danothy wrote: »
    The implication being that involvement in international integration could be an inherently bad thing.

    I see the value in it.

    I see the value of world peace
  • antrobus
    antrobus Posts: 17,386 Forumite
    danothy wrote: »
    The implication being that involvement in international integration could be an inherently bad thing.....

    Nope. The implication would be that faced with different choices, you can pick the one that suits you best.
  • danothy
    danothy Posts: 2,200 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker
    antrobus wrote: »
    But leaving all that aside, isn't it bl00dy obvious? You leave the EU. Then you pick your own method of 'synchronising society'. Whatever that means. :)

    The quote was 'synchronise the organisation of society'.
    antrobus wrote: »
    Oh, I understand it. I'm just making fun of you.

    Maybe. I don't find it terribly mocking though, to be asked why we have to pick the same method of aligning our approaches to society with other nations as those other nations with which we are aligning our approaches. It's somewhat a nonsensical mocking as a response to me suggesting that such an alignment itself is desirable.
    antrobus wrote: »
    You're the one that wrote "Yeah, because being on the same page as everyone else is so undesirable." It's not my fault that when you said "everyone else" you apparently didn't mean "everyone else" but actually really meant 'every other country in the EU except Denmark, and perhaps Sweden'.

    You're right, it's not your fault that I didn't mean every individual making the same decisions when talking about the desirability of Europe standardising its financial and legal matters.
    CLAPTON wrote: »
    I see the value of world peace

    So do I. I think the most likely way to achieve it is through steps that move towards global union, which probably would be preceded by steps towards closer European union.
    antrobus wrote: »
    Nope. The implication would be that faced with different choices, you can pick the one that suits you best.

    Pick the ones that suit you best. A Europe that stands as one suits me, as does union with others generally. A world that does suits me best. I would go so far as to say it suits everyone best, in a big picture sense, even the people that hate other people.
    If you think of it as 'us' verses 'them', then it's probably your side that are the villains.
  • CLAPTON
    CLAPTON Posts: 41,865 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    danothy wrote: »
    The quote was 'synchronise the organisation of society'.





    So do I. I think the most likely way to achieve it is through steps that move towards global union, which probably would be preceded by steps towards closer European union.




    well there are some promising signs
    -the collapse of the vile Soviet Empire was a positive although still plenty of issues there
    -the adoption of the more liberal model in China is also promising
    -India's adoption of more liberal economic policies is improving living standards there
    -sadly Venezuela is not making the hoped for progress after the elections

    Its difficult to see how countries outside the EU view the treatment of Greece and the south European states is unlikely to encourage further union

    With fences going up all over europe its not clear whether close integration will happen : maybe the exact opposite and europe will become an association of free countries
  • kinger101
    kinger101 Posts: 6,573 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    danothy wrote: »
    A Europe that stands as one suits me.

    It might do, but when various referenda have been held, there doesn't seem to be that much appetite among the people of Europe for this ever-closer union.
    "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance" - Confucius
  • antrobus
    antrobus Posts: 17,386 Forumite
    danothy wrote: »
    ...So do I. I think the most likely way to achieve it is through steps that move towards global union, which probably would be preceded by steps towards closer European union.....

    Worked so well in Yugoslavia, you must be right.
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