Bad vet experience..how to complain

victoriav

I am posting this for my friend Barry, who's been left in charge of his sisters alsation, (Barry is inconsolable and I said I'd try to help posting on here so here goes..) I've only just left him, he's absolutely distraught..so posting at late hour. I have explained that there may not be any replies til tomorrow..

Ok...


Barry has been looking after his sister's white alsation, Boris, who is five years old and a male. (sister gone abroad for a month)


Boris has unfortunately slipped on slippery steps which go down into the garden. He hurt his back, I believe., and back legs went wobbly. Barry had the details of the vet incase of anything going wrong. He called the vet out, and they came quite quickly, and were marvellous. They gave him painkillers and something else. His legs were a little wobbly and they said gentle exercise, to avoid seizing up. Boris tore off after a pigeon and fell again..slipped on wet area not steps this time, The vet was called again and gave acupuncture and some massage technique and pain relief, but was concerned about Boris' back legs, after a long talk it was decided to be referred to a neurological and spinal injury specialist, a good few miles away.


I believe Boris is insured.


In the meantime Barry got looking on the internet and saw the only vet practice that offers the same service, however is much nearer. He explained situation and got appointment. He managed to carefully take Boris on a sort of a trolley, so as not to cause further damage, and he had a vehicle with a tail lift. His neighbour and friend Paolo went to assist, as he is a dog lover.


I cannot really understand at this point why Barry took Boris to a nearer vet - who advertised the same services, as referral, when the first vet were so good with him, and decided to keep quiet about first vet, in the hope of getting him sorted a day or so sooner and not have to travel with him.


Although they advertised these services and were aware of why he was going, when they got there it was just a young girl who then said the spinal expert had gone on a stag party to Czech republic and would not be available for a few more days. Barry said ok, I will take him home then and use alternative resources., and that he could have saved a journey had he known this, The young girl (vet nurse) said No I can't allow that,, and euthanasia is recommended, I will leave you to say goodbye to Boris and then we shall commence. Barry was absolutely horrified and said no. absolutely not. Unbelievably she then said ok if you wont let me euthanize, it now becomes a matter for the rspca for cruelty and neglect and if you take him away I have no option but to call them!!


Barry was stunned and pointed out that it was hardly a cruelty case and that he had bought the dog in to be treated, and that in actual fact they'd advertised a service which was not available, that the practice were specifically told exactly the problem but chose not to disclose the specialist was not there, (he wouldn't have gone if he knew) then just offered euthanasia without any diagnosis and threatened to report him for cruelty, when he wouldn't agree!


Boris is going to the referral specialist and the original vets have been coming and checking him, at Barry's and working closely with Boris., offering great support.


Barry is absolutely traumatised and felt it now necessary for Boris to go to Paolo's overnight and is convinced the rspca may do an early morning raid and seize the dog ie choose to side with the vet without knowing the situation.


Could this happen? He couldn't get legal advice in time as he will be setting off early to the referral centre with him.


I don't think any crime has been commited? I think its good he has a witness in paolo., who stayed in the consulting room too.


I have never heard the likes of this, I find it very disturbing. Notably the 2nd vets were about to close for half day when Barry, Paolo and Boris arrived, don't know if this has any bearing? In the midst of everything Barry paid £105 cash for 'consultation' and tablets, in order to be free to leave. He left without receipt. He forgot about insurance.


I hope I haven't rambled, I am falling asleep and trying to remember the sequence of events accurately.


Feedback much appreciated, or similar situations and remedy? Oh I think I forgot to put first vets think slipped disc pushing down on spine, but referred to specialist for confirmation, and hopeful of favourable outcome.

sangie595

Right, let's try and untangle this.

In terms of Barry's biggest concern here, let's nip that one in the bud straight away. The RSPCA WILL NOT simply come and take a dog away based on a report from ANYONE, even a veterinarian - and the receptionist / nurse isn't a vet anyway! If any report was made, and I will lay bets that it won't be, an inspector would call around to see the welfare of the animal. Barry has more than enough evidence that he has been caring for the dog appropriately, and the vet will confirm that. That will be quite enough to close the case. He can stop worrying about that.

In terms of the practice, that is more difficult. Complaints about a vet can be made to the RCVS, but this incident did not involve the vet, so the conduct of the member of staff is an internal matter. I doubt they would do anything. And although he could take legal action for the conduct of the practice and to recover his costs, it will be difficult - he has no receipt, technically he did have a consultation and he could have refused tablets - probably more trouble than it is worth I am afraid.

Moving on. Probably a bit late to say this, but gentle exercise means making sure Boris can't tear off after anything - keep him on the lead!

The vet would never have delayed treatment for any period of time if he thought for one minute that it would cause Boris any more pain or cause any further lasting damage - your friend needs to stick with what he knows and let the vet do his job. Barry's job is to keep Boris calm and controlled to avoid him hurting himself again. Boris won't suffer by being kept on a lead. He might prefer to run around chasing things and bounding up and down steps, but he can't have everything he wants in life, and he'll live with it until he is better.

The other thing is that I probably know exactly why Barry rushed to another vet that he thought would do the job quicker - he doesn't want his sister to know what has happened until it is fixed! It's much easier to tell "mum" when it is all in the past. My advice is that if he hasn't told her, he needs to. He can leave out the misadventure with the second vet - she probably won't appreciate it and there was no harm done, so best to stick to what she needs to hear. Boris has had a couple of falls. It has hurt him but the vet has everything in hand.

What is of greater concern, and this is almost certainly what the vet wants to check on, is why a healthy active dog fell twice in a short period of time. That's what the neurological exam will be for - to see if there is a physical cause for the falls.

Tell Barry he's done his best, he isn't at fault, and stop worrying. It may be bad luck, or there may be an underlying issue that has caused this - either way it could have happened at any time, and it wasn't due to his own carelessness.

victoriav

Thanks very much sangie 595, for replying. You have logically untangled what is quite a mess, and I thank you so much for taking the time., on behalf of Barry.


I will print off to show Barry, I'm popping to see him after lunch. I spoke to him. I need to calm him down.


I think why Boris slipped was because the stone/concrete steps like a staircase, had like an algae green stuff on them as Barry's garden does have a lot of large trees - i think it (green stuff/damp) came from the trees sap, and it was wet at the time, and Boris is boisterous at times, and I believe he slipped on wet on a tiled patio second time. (visiting squirrels too!!) will give Boris a reason to go charging off.. if not carefully contained.


I think that Barry accepted the tablets for Boris, incase that second vet said by not doing he was deliberately causing dog to suffer by not doing, although he did already have medications for Boris anyway. I think he really believed that those vets wouldn't have let him out of the building..he felt very intimidated...


Barry wants to tell his sister when she gets home, she's in Australia (I think,?) so doesn't want to ruin her holiday, and he decided probably not mention the second vet drama.




I will keep posted any updates and all keeping fingers crossed.




NB My own experience with RSPCA when once reporting gin traps being sold at an outdoor 'country' event was one of total disinterest, when the phone was eventually answered at the end of the day, I gave the culprits number plate, took photos, and went back and surrepticiously removed them myself before leaving..yes theft, I know...they said wearily that yes its 'not nice' and that it was not illegal to sell them, only to use them..

Another time they would not attend to an injured fancy type of dove in an inaccessible place, with the help of a college student it was retrieved and taken to a bird sanctuary, were it was happily fixed.

worst of all this year, they attended a neighbour of my cousin, whose neighbour had been evicted, 2 pedigree highly desirable cats were left in the evicted building, 2 hamsters, a ferret and an old common black moggy..the rspca took the 2 'valuable' ones saying they could generate money by rehoming them, and simply left the rest there. My cousin ended up with the ferret and the hamsters went to a junior school...the old black cat went to a new home that my cousin arranged..she left a message to tell them she'd managed to deal with the problem nobody ever acknowledged this.

So not inspired with their conduct to say the least...

krlyr

The RCVS are the 'reporting' body as such for complaints against veterinary surgeons and vet nurses - http://www.rcvs.org.uk/concerns/

I would, however, suggest Barry talks to the head of the vet at the practice as his first port of call. The girl may not have been speaking for the surgery itself with her actions, and they may have a completely different viewpoint to her.

sangie595

I'm not a big fan of the RSPCA myself, but especially in the last example, I would have been reporting the employees myself. Unfortunately, when it comes to enforcing the law, the law about many things makes no sense. It is a discrepancy in the law that it is legal to sell something that it is illegal to use, so there really was nothing the RSPCA could have done. In general their inspectors do a very good job - what I struggle with is their policies, which aren't the employees faults. And unfortunately, they are totally overstretched, which is the fault of people who do cruel things to animals - if they only had to deal with non deliberate cases and accidents / incidents, then they wouldn't have a huge backlog of work and overflowing shelters.

Let's just hope that Boris recovers well - and it's always a matter of judgement, but I would shoot Barry for NOT telling me! But it could be a case of damned if he does and damned if he doesn't...

Krlyr may be right and maybe she didn't speak for the practice. Personally I wouldn't trust a practice who leaves a nurse in charge at all - in a case such as this the consultation should be with a vet, and the practice knew the circumstances before they arrived, so that should have been arranged. At our practice the nurses are the best, but they are very clearly not in control of cases and do not make such decisions - those left to the vets. She could not have known what was wrong with the dog or the prognosis - her training is strictly limited compared to that of a vet. However, my experience is that complaining about vets is like complaining about lawyers - time-consuming, fruitless and there is always wriggle room. In my case I refused to pay a bill for treatment because I considered their conduct to be unprofessional. The RCVS didn't agree, but when the practice sued me for the money I owed, the judge threw out the case because they said I had not had the service that I was entitled to expect. And that was a pretty clear cut case - I delivered a healthy dog in his prime for routine treatment, he died, and they failed to tell me that there was anything wrong until after he had died - in fact told me on three occasions over five hours that he was fine when, in fact, he was dying. And then disposed of the body before any instructions had been issued because they hadn't yet told me he was dead. If that doesn't rate as unprofessional behaviour, then the RCVS wouldn't know what does.

victoriav

Oh my lord! Sangie595, what a devastating experience for you, losing your dog like that, that's really shocking, and I guess they all cover each others backs to some point....its good you won your case.


Barry said thanks for replies! He's a little calmer now, just have to wait to see what happens next regarding the referral, so far the rspca did not show up at his house...


Talking of them, I know a while ago, someone who's neighbour was nasty and the maliciously told the rspca that he was starving his two jack russel dogs, when infact the crux of the matter was, he'd previously reported the two dogs for barking, which was investigated and then closed due to unfounded claim. The rspca did come as they apparently have to respond. They came when he was out and they saw the two dogs, in their paddock, they left a little note 'nothing to worry about but just give us a call'. He did and the lady was so nice, saying "well we can see they are certainly not starved, we could see their kennels, water, food, toys, balls, etc, we are quite satisfied that there is no starvation case. (observing that actually the smaller of the two one was a bit overweight) and we think they are lovely friendly dogs!" He later viewed his cctv and saw the dogs being fussed by them, them laughing, shaking their heads, and writing a note to him, that's a waste of their time and pure vindictiveness, and I think that perpetrator should have been prosecuted for wasting their time.


As for solicitors....Also I knew of a case where a lady (widow) was being chased up for poll tax that she did not owe. She'd got an appointment but it was snowing and she struggled in a wheelchair through the snow, arriving five minutes late. She'd been allocated half an hour legal aid. The solicitor refused to see her, although she said well just give me the remaining 25 mins then - I came a long way. He would not. she'd even prepared a case file, all the letters, correspondence.,and had it all in her satchel. They begrudgingly gave her another appointment in two weeks time. This time she arrived early, they led her to a room, which had one of those key code buttons to enter, so rather intimidating like she'd been locked in for interrogation or something.. she took out her files explained what had happened the solicitor said 'stop right there, I aren't even looking, the council are like the mah fee ahh, you might as well pay it. She said no, you misunderstand - I actually don't owe it. He said he was gasping for a coffee and walked out. the trainee proceeded to ask her if she owned anything valuable, jewellery, property, she was astounded and refused to sign anything and demanded to be let out. the solicitor got his pay for two 'sessions' in which he did nothing. The lady in question then got her MP involved and he sorted it very quickly, and she did not owe the council the poll tax at all. She got no apology. When she tried to complain re the solicitors conduct, she also got nowhere. So I can relate to this.

teddysmum

The dog appears to have been seen only by a nurse, so it's a pity there is no invoice, as it may 'show' that a vet consultation was made.


Beyond trivial matters such as would dressing, stitch removal and post op checkups,I don't believe that a nurse can consult and more importantly prescribe medication, though they can certainly dispense and provide repeats, but these would be from a vet's instruction.

sangie595

teddysmum wrote: »

The dog appears to have been seen only by a nurse, so it's a pity there is no invoice, as it may 'show' that a vet consultation was made.


Beyond trivial matters such as would dressing, stitch removal and post op checkups,I don't believe that a nurse can consult and more importantly prescribe medication, though they can certainly dispense and provide repeats, but these would be from a vet's instruction.

Depends on the medicine and the nurse. Some medicines are "over the counter" - in other words anybody can suggest you take them. Whether they know what they are doing or not is, of course, another matter. Some nurses are able to prescribe - there's a special term for it, but I have totally forgotten it! They are similar to nurse practitioners in human clinics - they are trained to prescribe for a range of situations. However, I would agree that in the case described here no nurse would be qualified to diagnose or treat such an injury, except to relieve immediate pain.

Interestingly though, you did make me ponder something that I then had to go and check. The drugs used for euthanasia are controlled, and only veterinary surgeons or veterinary nurses acting under the direction of a veterinary surgeon are allowed to access them. So even a veterinary nurse who is qualified to prescribe could not use these drugs without a direction from a vet.

That did lead me to ponder whether the "nurse" was a "nurse" but a vet (we have a new one at our practice, and I know I am not as young as I used to be, but I swear she doesn't look old enough to be out of school!), but rejected that idea because a vet would know the law around euthanizing an animal, and this person clearly didn't. A vet who believes that euthanasia is the only option, whilst the animal is on their premises, is empowered in law, and required, to act in the animals interests regardless of the wishes of the owner - they wouldn't be calling the RSPCA.

victoriav

Ok, I think I have this all correct....


Update on Boris...HE'S ON THE MEND, he's been to the referral centre, its cost thousands of pounds.. the insurance had a limit upto what they will pay, the rest must be met by the owner, no payment schemes unless you really push and insist, then they add 20% interest monthly on all outstanding monies...and insist it is paid by 12 weeks.


Barry paid rest on credit card luckily..either that or as their finance dept lady said the rest needs paying right now, get a payday loan.....remortgage the house, sell your car....


they apparently did mri scan, ultrasonic as well, and many tests, turned out to be a very severe urinary tract/bladder infection...severe bruising to spinal area, from a hard fall, he may need hydrotherapy to regain strength in rear legs....I think given time he will recover nicely. Plus time is on his side as he is young.


One thing, Barry wanted the vets findings/notes (copies of) to show his sister, he was given a detailed receipt page, like a breakdown, some of which is clearly 'vetspeak' and says like stage 3 something, and stage 4 something, however he has been told that they (findings/notes, results from tests, pictures of scans, mri and ultra, ) remain the property of the vet. In other words the information is to remain private...I don't like the sound of that, and the scan he was shown was presented on a computer screen, and not like a huge negative that is displayed with a lightbox behind as is usual. There was no name on the scan that was shown,it would have surely said 'Boris Surname' across the top, or it could have been a scan of any dog, or a picture from the internet....


As for the other vets he looked at their website, it showed pictures of staff with names, she was not a qualified vet, but a vet nurse, but was acting via telephone for the vet, she kept popping out of the room to 'ask her boss' so infact the actual qualified vet was advising but hadn't physically seen Boris..he was on the other end of the phone. whether he was the one on holiday who was the expert, or whether it was another vet off duty we shall never know.


Could Barry ask the vet who is Boris' regular vet who referred him to the referral centre, whether they could obtain copies of the notes/findings?

sheramber

MRI scans are images shown on a computer screen, not a photograph like an xray.

The images on the screen are interpreted and made into a written report.

https://www.rcvs.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/code-of-professional-conduct-for-veterinary-surgeons/supporting-guidance/clinical-and-client-records/

13.3 Clinical and client records including radiographic images and similar documents, are the property of, and should be retained by, veterinary surgeons in the interests of animal welfare and for their own protection.

13.4 Copies with a relevant clinical history should be passed on request to a colleague taking over the case.

13.5 Where a client has been specifically charged and has paid for radiographic images or other reports, they are legally entitled to them. A practice may choose to make it clear to clients that they are not charged for radiographs or laboratory reports, but for diagnosis or advice only.

13.6 The Data Protection Act 1998 gives anyone the right to be informed about any personal data relating to themselves on payment of an administration charge. At the request of a client, veterinary surgeons must provide copies of any relevant clinical and client records, including radiographic images and similar documents. This also includes relevant records which have come from other practices, if they relate to the same animal and the same client, but does not include records which relate to the same animal but a different client.

sangie595

victoriav wrote: »

Ok, I think I have this all correct....


Update on Boris...HE'S ON THE MEND, he's been to the referral centre, its cost thousands of pounds.. the insurance had a limit upto what they will pay, the rest must be met by the owner, no payment schemes unless you really push and insist, then they add 20% interest monthly on all outstanding monies...and insist it is paid by 12 weeks.


Barry paid rest on credit card luckily..either that or as their finance dept lady said the rest needs paying right now, get a payday loan.....remortgage the house, sell your car....


they apparently did mri scan, ultrasonic as well, and many tests, turned out to be a very severe urinary tract/bladder infection...severe bruising to spinal area, from a hard fall, he may need hydrotherapy to regain strength in rear legs....I think given time he will recover nicely. Plus time is on his side as he is young.


One thing, Barry wanted the vets findings/notes (copies of) to show his sister, he was given a detailed receipt page, like a breakdown, some of which is clearly 'vetspeak' and says like stage 3 something, and stage 4 something, however he has been told that they (findings/notes, results from tests, pictures of scans, mri and ultra, ) remain the property of the vet. In other words the information is to remain private...I don't like the sound of that, and the scan he was shown was presented on a computer screen, and not like a huge negative that is displayed with a lightbox behind as is usual. There was no name on the scan that was shown,it would have surely said 'Boris Surname' across the top, or it could have been a scan of any dog, or a picture from the internet....


As for the other vets he looked at their website, it showed pictures of staff with names, she was not a qualified vet, but a vet nurse, but was acting via telephone for the vet, she kept popping out of the room to 'ask her boss' so infact the actual qualified vet was advising but hadn't physically seen Boris..he was on the other end of the phone. whether he was the one on holiday who was the expert, or whether it was another vet off duty we shall never know.


Could Barry ask the vet who is Boris' regular vet who referred him to the referral centre, whether they could obtain copies of the notes/findings?

Well, the good news is that Boris is much better. Once he is stronger I would suggest that the owner start a regimen of joint care - injuries like this, in dogs and humans (and most other things) have a tendency to come back to haunt you in old age! Personally I recommend using Synflex - my last old boy used it for arthritis and it helped him enough to be able to come off medications; and I have seen it do great stuff in younger dogs, including returning a dog to almost full health from a joint problem which the vet said was irreversible and said that the dog should be euthanised. Others will have other recommendations, but don't ignore it - once damage is done that point will remain weaker forever.

As for the costs, I am very much afraid that you have seen the joys of private healthcare - if it weren't for the NHS we would be seeing bills like this ourselves. Damage such as you describe is exceptionally expensive to diagnose and treat, and bills in the £thousands are commonplace. And the problem is that once one thing has happened, dogs are often prone to developing infections that aren't necessarily directly linked to the original problem - dogs are actually much more physically fragile than cats. And realistically, Barry wouldn't have really known what he was looking at anyway - having a name on it doesn't mean anything, if you are going to start down the road of not trusting what your vet says. It's several years since I had any major vet bills, but some five years ago my last lad was attacked by two dogs and developed a severe infection. Although we very nearly lost him, the cause and problems were clear (so no tests or investigations necessary), but even back then (and other pet owners I know say my vet charges less than theirs do!) it was just over £1,000 for his treatment. So what you are describing doesn't sound off the mark at all. I am afraid that is the cost of pet ownership, and the reason why there is so much variation in pet insurance prices - you get what you pay for.

But do let us know how Boris is getting on. Hopefully he will be up and about in the not to distant future, but possibly a gentler pace might benefit his health, if he can be persuaded to slow down!