Difficult joint freeholders

Barry_B

I recently purchased and live in the top floor flat in a 3 flat converted house. All 3 owners are leaseholders and freeholders, but the two owners below me are absent landlords. The freehold title is registered to individual names. There is no managing agent and we are supposed to pay for maintenance on an ad-hoc basis.

The roof is leaking and the two absent landlords say they will agree to share the costs, as long as we use a roofing company, which happens to be unavailable for 2 months and, as it transpired, are vastly more expensive than the roofing company I want to use. Their justification is that the company has worked on the roof before and that it makes sense to have the same company cover the whole roof. The previous works are under a 10 year guarantee, but the leaking part is in a different location. My ceiling and walls are being ruined by the leak. Since we are leaseholders and freeholders, major works require a consensus; a simple majority isn't enough. I can't sue the other flat owners, because they would have to consent to be taken to court. I'm sure no solicitor would agree to both represent and act against their own client!

I may be paranoid, but I suspect that my joint freeholders (who are buy-to-let landlords) have deliberately engineered a stalemate in order to avoid paying their share of the costs. They've offered a "solution" which I think most people would not accept. One month ago, I obtained the quote the joint freeholders said they needed from their preferred roofer and sent it to them, along with my objections about the cost, but despite phone calls and emails, they have not responded. One joint freeholder says that she needs to be "reminded" by text to check her emails, but I caught her out, when a property expert friend emailed her over an unrelated matter and he got a reply in 12 hours.

My preferred roofer says he'll do the job for £340 (3 coats acrypol for a cracked firewall). The unavailable roofer is quoting £2500 for replacement flashing and mineral felt capping, which my roofer says may be needed in the future, but not now. Both roofers score highly on Checkatrade.

I am suspicious that the previous owner withheld the fact that the roof leaked and was repaired. I only learned of the works from my joint freeholders after buying. I asked the previous owner about it in an email and he said that he passed the roof guarantees to his solicitor, who passed the documents to my conveyancer. However, when I followed this up, my conveyancer said this was not true. Am I right to suspect that the vendor withheld this information, because he didn't want me to find out about a possible dispute between him and the joint freeholders? Why lie to me about passing on the roofing guarantees? It's a lovely flat in a good area, but the vendor (also a buy-to-let landlord) had tried to sell four times in the last 5 years...

My joint freeholders plan to re-roof the extension, which is completely separate from my flat in the next 5 years. I am happy to comply with the lease, but I have deep reservations about co-operating given the way I've been treated. I will of course come up with my own objections when the time comes and then suggest we move forward once all leaseholders enter into a Declaration of Trust. I need to be satisfied that, if I pay for one third of roofing costs directly benefiting them, that they will do the same, should the roof above my flat require renewal.

I am a first time buyer and an honest, straightforward person. I really dislike having to deal with people who are manipulative and who absent themselves when it suits them to do so.

I appreciate your time for reading this and for providing advice.

quotememiserable

First thing that confuses me is that you say all three are leaseholders and freeholders. I don't think they can be both: one or the other.

Barry_B

Thanks for your question. We are leaseholders and freeholders because each flat owner owns a share of the freehold.

ognum

Barry_B wrote: »

I recently purchased and live in the top floor flat in a 3 flat converted house. All 3 owners are leaseholders and freeholders, but the two owners below me are absent landlords. The freehold title is registered to individual names. There is no managing agent and we are supposed to pay for maintenance on an ad-hoc basis.

The roof is leaking and the two absent landlords say they will agree to share the costs, as long as we use a roofing company, which happens to be unavailable for 2 months and, as it transpired, are vastly more expensive than the roofing company I want to use. Their justification is that the company has worked on the roof before and that it makes sense to have the same company cover the whole roof. The previous works are under a 10 year guarantee, but the leaking part is in a different location. My ceiling and walls are being ruined by the leak. Since we are leaseholders and freeholders, major works require a consensus; a simple majority isn't enough. I can't sue the other flat owners, because they would have to consent to be taken to court. I'm sure no solicitor would agree to both represent and act against their own client!

I may be paranoid, but I suspect that my joint freeholders (who are buy-to-let landlords) have deliberately engineered a stalemate in order to avoid paying their share of the costs. They've offered a "solution" which I think most people would not accept. One month ago, I obtained the quote the joint freeholders said they needed from their preferred roofer and sent it to them, along with my objections about the cost, but despite phone calls and emails, they have not responded. One joint freeholder says that she needs to be "reminded" by text to check her emails, but I caught her out, when a property expert friend emailed her over an unrelated matter and he got a reply in 12 hours.

My preferred roofer says he'll do the job for £340 (3 coats acrypol for a cracked firewall). The unavailable roofer is quoting £2500 for replacement flashing and mineral felt capping, which my roofer says may be needed in the future, but not now. Both roofers score highly on Checkatrade.

I am suspicious that the previous owner withheld the fact that the roof leaked and was repaired. I only learned of the works from my joint freeholders after buying. I asked the previous owner about it in an email and he said that he passed the roof guarantees to his solicitor, who passed the documents to my conveyancer. However, when I followed this up, my conveyancer said this was not true. Am I right to suspect that the vendor withheld this information, because he didn't want me to find out about a possible dispute between him and the joint freeholders? Why lie to me about passing on the roofing guarantees? It's a lovely flat in a good area, but the vendor (also a buy-to-let landlord) had tried to sell four times in the last 5 years...

My joint freeholders plan to re-roof the extension, which is completely separate from my flat in the next 5 years. I am happy to comply with the lease, but I have deep reservations about co-operating given the way I've been treated. I will of course come up with my own objections when the time comes and then suggest we move forward once all leaseholders enter into a Declaration of Trust. I need to be satisfied that, if I pay for one third of roofing costs directly benefiting them, that they will do the same, should the roof above my flat require renewal.

I am a first time buyer and an honest, straightforward person. I really dislike having to deal with people who are manipulative and who absent themselves when it suits them to do so.

I appreciate your time for reading this and for providing advice.

If I was one of the joint freeholders I would probably prefer the job done properly by the roofing company that had already done some work. I understand this is not you preference but you also say your method is just a stop gap. Could you pay for your stop gap and then get the job done properly when the roofer is available.

I think you may need a bit of attitude adjustment if you are going to make progress with your fellow freeholders. You claim they are'manipulative' because they don't agree with you? They have suggested a solution, you don't like it so you say they absent themselves.

You have bought into this situation, now you have to learn to communicate and negotiate. Maybe suggest to them that you will get the roof done your way now and pay for it but when the proper fix is done you would expect it deducted from your share of the bill.

I suggest you ask to meet together, maybe at your flat so they can fully understand your problem. Talk with them without the aggression you have in your post and come up with an amicable solution. Less aggression, less angst, less of the world is against me.

G_M

You need to get some more quotes. Several. For the repairs to your flat. Thoe quotes should ideally also show how much they will increase if the roof repair is delayed and the damage to your flat is increased.

Clearly the other freeholders will be responsible for the ongoing damage if they delay urgent roof repairs.

Sadly there are only 2 ways to go:

* negotiation compromise and agreement

* the legal route......

In your capacity as a leaseholder, you can use the courts, or dispute resolution, to force 'the freeholder' (a single legal entity in this case comprising 3 individuals) to fulfill their repairing obligations.

This guide here from leaseadvice may be of help......

Barry_B

ognum wrote: »

If I was one of the joint freeholders I would probably prefer the job done properly by the roofing company that had already done some work. I understand this is not you preference but you also say your method is just a stop gap. Could you pay for your stop gap and then get the job done properly when the roofer is available.

I think you may need a bit of attitude adjustment if you are going to make progress with your fellow freeholders. You claim they are'manipulative' because they don't agree with you? They have suggested a solution, you don't like it so you say they absent themselves.

You have bought into this situation, now you have to learn to communicate and negotiate. Maybe suggest to them that you will get the roof done your way now and pay for it but when the proper fix is done you would expect it deducted from your share of the bill.

I suggest you ask to meet together, maybe at your flat so they can fully understand your problem. Talk with them without the aggression you have in your post and come up with an amicable solution. Less aggression, less angst, less of the world is against me.

I think you've concluded that since the post reflects my frustration at the situation, that my tone was similar when communicating with the joint freeholders, which, in turn, put them off, but I have been polite to them throughout. How would anyone feel, if their plasterwork and ceiling was being damaged by rainwater and their co-freeholders simply proposed their solution and then ignored any further communications? I'm actually quite scared of what might happen and feel vulnerable that the joint freeholders aren't much help.

I have explained the situation to my property expert friend, who concluded that they are typical of many buy-to-let landlords, who are trying to maximise income, while minimising outgoings. He said that it is common for owners of lower flats to cause obstructions when the roof needs work, as they are not as immediately affected as top floor owners.

Acrypol is a highly rated material, with a maximum lifespan of 5 years. Mineral felt has a lifespan of 10 - 12 years. The overall cost of repeated applications of Acrypol over 20 years is cheaper than the solution offered by the other company.

Regarding face-to-face negotiations with joint freeholders, I have already suggested they drop by for a cup of tea and a chat, but received no replies. They live in other parts of the country. How can I begin negotiations if they simply don't answer the phone or reply to emails?

Another issue I've had is the bathroom extractor fan in the flat below. It makes a terrible noise, which carries into my bedroom (45 - 55 decibels). The plastic outlet duct runs under my floorboards and vibrates like a diesel engine. The over-run timer was set at 40 minutes. I had to wear ear plugs in bed for 4 months, resulting in swollen, bleeding ear drums. The discomfort caused insomnia. I politely asked the owner to get it fixed or replaced, offering to contribute towards a silent fan. The owner agreed to have the over-run reduced, but this did not happen until my expert friend stepped in months later and asked her to have it reduced. Luckily, the tenants are very nice, considerate students, who volunteered not to switch the bathroom light/fan on at night. Environmental Health visited my flat, but the fan didn't come on and they won't come out again, unless the tenants agree to an appointment so the inspectors can listen to the noise.

Barry_B

G_M wrote: »

You need to get some more quotes. Several. For the repairs to your flat. Thoe quotes should ideally also show how much they will increase if the roof repair is delayed and the damage to your flat is increased.

Clearly the other freeholders will be responsible for the ongoing damage if they delay urgent roof repairs.

Sadly there are only 2 ways to go:

* negotiation compromise and agreement

* the legal route......

In your capacity as a leaseholder, you can use the courts, or dispute resolution, to force 'the freeholder' (a single legal entity in this case comprising 3 individuals) to fulfill their repairing obligations.

This guide here from leaseadvice may be of help......

Thank you for your suggestions. Much appreciated. I am going to pay the roofer to coat the firewall in Acrypol and hopefully that will sort it for a few years. Should I just send the joint freeholders the bill, as I haven't obtained their permission for the works?

I did warn them about the possibility of wet rot and penetrating damp, but they just said not to worry, it's not forecast to rain for a while...

G_M

Barry_B wrote: »

Thank you for your suggestions. Much appreciated. I am going to pay the roofer to coat the firewall in Acrypol and hopefully that will sort it for a few years. Should I just send the joint freeholders the bill, as I haven't obtained their permission for the works?

I did warn them about the possibility of wet rot and penetrating damp, but they just said not to worry, it's not forecast to rain for a while...

Yes send them the bill asking for 1/3rd each. No long-winded covering letter. Just describe it as an emergency repair requiring immediate work.

My guess is they'll ignore, and you'll then have to decide what to do.

The alternative is to write as a leaseholder, (clearly identifying yourself as such) to all 3 freeholders, (yes, including yourself!) demanding repair work wihout delay due to ongoing damage.

Then if the others do nothing in, say 5 days, act as freeholder as above.

Barry_B

G_M wrote: »

Yes send them the bill asking for 1/3rd each. No long-winded covering letter. Just describe it as an emergency repair requiring immediate work.

My guess is they'll ignore, and you'll then have to decide what to do.

The alternative is to write as a leaseholder, (clearly identifying yourself as such) to all 3 freeholders, (yes, including yourself!) demanding repair work wihout delay due to ongoing damage.

Then if the others do nothing in, say 5 days, act as freeholder as above.

Thank you for your well thought out advice.

If it's not too much of a hassle, would you mind reading this? (I posted it earlier in this thread to another member)

Another issue I've had is the bathroom extractor fan in the flat below. It makes a terrible noise, which carries into my bedroom (45 - 55 decibels). The plastic outlet duct runs under my floorboards and vibrates like a diesel engine. The over-run timer was set at 40 minutes. I had to wear ear plugs in bed for 4 months, resulting in swollen, bleeding ear drums. The discomfort caused insomnia. I politely asked the owner to get it fixed or replaced, offering to contribute towards a silent fan. The owner agreed to have the over-run reduced, but this did not happen until my expert friend stepped in months later and asked her to have it reduced. Luckily, the tenants are very nice, considerate students, who volunteered not to switch the bathroom light/fan on at night. Environmental Health visited my flat, but the fan didn't come on and they won't come out again, unless the tenants agree to an appointment so the inspectors can listen to the noise.

G_M

* arrange a time with the tenants and Environmental Health?

* ask if you can inspect the fan - it may just need cleaning/oiling?

* buy them (and fit for them) a new fan

* might the ducting just need screwing down? If it vibrates, it is loose.

* alteration to the ducting may involve freeholder consent......... :eek:

Barry_B

G_M wrote: »

* arrange a time with the tenants and Environmental Health?

* ask if you can inspect the fan - it may just need cleaning/oiling?

* buy them (and fit for them) a new fan

* might the ducting just need screwing down? If it vibrates, it is loose.

* alteration to the ducting may involve freeholder consent......... :eek:

The tenants won't make an appointment with EH and I don't want to keep asking, in case it uses up their supply of goodwill. They've been very accommodating already by using alternate light sources in the bathroom.

Their letting agency refuses to have the fan cleaned or repaired.

I would consider buying a new fan, but as a first time buyer, I've been hammered financially and don't see why I should pay for it when it's the owner's responsibility.

In the future, when I can afford it, I might lift the floorboards up and have sound proofing installed.

I dread it when the tenants move out, as I'll have to go through the same process of persuading the new people not to switch the light/fan on at night.