Is this a HBO? Council tax question

redbooties

I've read through the tenancy agreement and it is an assured shorthold tenancy agreement and it states that the tenants are responsible for the bills, council tax, electric, gas etc so the council tax bill is all on her shoulders.

pmlindyloo

redbooties wrote: »

I've read through the tenancy agreement and it is an assured shorthold tenancy agreement and it states that the tenants are responsible for the bills, council tax, electric, gas etc so the council tax bill is all on her shoulders.

I don't think you are understanding this so let's start at the beginning.

Does your niece and the other tenants have separate tenancy agreements or not?

booksurr

redbooties wrote: »

I've read through the tenancy agreement and it is an assured shorthold tenancy agreement and it states that the tenants are responsible for the bills, council tax, electric, gas etc so the council tax bill is all on her shoulders.

no, no, no,
please take time to understand this as it is very important you get this right as it is a matter of statute law. Yes the end result may mean she has to pay anyway but you are failing to understand the legalities

- the property is a Council Tax HMO because each occupant has their own individual agreement yet they all live in the same property and so share facilities (kitchen, bathroom)?

- in law ONLY the LL is liable for the tax

- your niece must not pay the bill, she must inform the council it is an HMO and they have billed the wrong person. The council has a legal duty to cancel the bill in her name and to issue a new bill in the name of the LL. If the council subsequently finds out it is an HMO they will do that anyway and refund any money your niece has paid them back to her as in law she is not liable to pay their bill. There is a poster on these boards called CIS who works in council tax and has done exactly this several times

- obviously the LL must then pay the council as the bill will be in his name

- how the LL recovers the money from your niece is down to him and his contract. You say the contract makes your niece "responsible" for CT, that at first glance is meaningless since the LL is the liable person so how does that clause enable the LL to get money from the niece to meet the LL's legal liability?

Yes this is pedantry but it is wrong to go back to the niece and say she must pay a bill in her name because that bill should not be in her name. Obviously her life will be easier if she does give the LL extra money with which he can pay his bill, but given the contract clause you state I don't think it is good enough to force her to do so in the context of a CT HMO. It sounds more like a standard clause in an off the shelf tenancy agreement that is not suited to an HMO.

redbooties

It is not a separate tenancy agreement, it's one agreement which they all signed but they were given their own copy of this.

booksurr

redbooties wrote: »

It is not a separate tenancy agreement, it's one agreement which they all signed but they were given their own copy of this.

oh blimey what a waste of time

yes she is legally liable for the council tax, yes she must pay it herself. The LL has no liability as it is not a CT HMO, the nature of the tenancy agreement determines a CT HMO not whether they have locks on doors or pay rent separately - they are all on a joint tenancy agreement so she must pay, end of story!

Miss_Samantha

I think perhaps worth pointing out that since the tenancy agreement is between the landlord and the tenant, if it states that the tenant is responsible to pay something then ultimately it means that the tenant is liable to the landlord.

Edit:
Ah if they are in fact all joint-tenants then it is a bit academic in relation to council tax.

redbooties

booksurr wrote: »

oh blimey what a waste of time

yes she is legally liable for the council tax, yes she must pay it herself. The LL has no liability as it is not a CT HMO

end of story!

Sorry about wasting everyone's time, my niece told me that she had separate tenancy agreements and so that's why I was confused about the HMO but after calming her down and reading through the agreement I can see that it's one agreement and the rent is split between the tenants. Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply.

HappyMJ

redbooties wrote: »

Sorry about wasting everyone's time, my niece told me that she had separate tenancy agreements and so that's why I was confused about the HMO but after calming her down and reading through the agreement I can see that it's one agreement and the rent is split between the tenants. Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply.

You do also realize that she would also be responsible to the LL for any unpaid rent by any of the people listed on the agreement. Not just her share but potentially the whole lot.

G_M

redbooties wrote: »

They all pay their their rent separately to the letting a agency.

This is what has confused matters.

The assumption we have all made from your original statement abobe was that they are all on separate contracts: one contract per person, so each pays their own rent.

You now say:

It is not a separate tenancy agreement, it's one agreement which they all signed but they were given their own copy of this.

so I now assume that you originally meant there is an informal arrangement whereby they each pay a % of the rent (1/6th each?) to make up the total rent on the contract.

That is legally a very different set-up.

So they are on a single contract. They are a single unit. Not an HMO. So the council tax comes to them. Since 5 of them are students, they are exempt, so the remaining working joint tenant should
a) claim single person discount and then
b) pay the council tax

redbooties

HappyMJ wrote: »

You do also realize that she would also be responsible to the LL for any unpaid rent by any of the people listed on the agreement. Not just her share but potentially the whole lot.

Yes which is why the other tenants were so eager for her to move in as it brings their percentage of the rent down.

They still pay the lettings agency individually by direct debit but if 5 of them move out for any reason the one that is left has to pay the full £1500. This is her first proper tenancy agreement as she was a student living in student halls before this and she didn't check/understand what she was signing. Hopefully this is a big life lesson learnt.