Selling on Amazon, Verification, UTR and HMRC

utr121

Hi,
Thank you to anybody who takes the time to give me some valuable pointers ( and given that forums tend to get heated I would be grateful for no abuse or unfounded accusations ).

I need some advice, and I don't know where to start ( and given I don't have any money, I don't want to take up an accountants valuable time without paying them for it nor under false pretences I have a business that is going to give them work ).

So if anyone has any pointers or links as to where I can educate myself on this topic I would be grateful.

I've always world from a young age, always had a paper round or Saturday job. Leaving school I was PAYE from age 17 to 30. I was a sole trader 30 to 36 and accounts were done (disasterous). I would have had a UTR issued to me ( important point there ).
After and including a series of personal nightmares ( business failure, debt, children & relationship trauma, family illness, homelessness, mental instability ), which I took hard, for the last 10 years I have lived completely off the radar of the state. No job, no benefits, no declared economic activity, no electoral register, no legal address, phone number, nothing. I barely exist. Tax organisations and others gave up sending letters after a couple of years. Amazingly, the credit reference agencies do have information, such as the exact balance of my overdraft every month ! Other than that I am invisible.

My only form of income in recent 5 or 6 years has been selling on Amazon, as I have a lifelong collection of crap which happens to have a value to somebody else. I have kept no accounts. I have filed no returns. I don't know what my GROSS income was. Maybe into my pocket 10K a year. Maybe less one year. Maybe lots more some other year. I have no idea. I got by, I survived, I did what I had to do and that is all that matters. The only thing I can say with certainty, is that if the personal tax allowance was 7K and then 10K, if my income was calculated on on PROFITS rather than gross, I don't owe the government any tax. Paperwork maybe, money no. I didn't make 10K profit any year, so I didn't "earn" more than the tax allowance.

No way could I accurately calculate profit or loss. The stuff I sold was primarily possessions. I have been living a basic existence with no adult financial responsibilities. Money came in. I spent it ( in no particular order of importance ) on alcohol, food, public transport, paying a huge self storage bill, buying things to read/watch/listen/play which were either hoarded or sold onwards on Amazon, alcohol, certain bad habits, getting through the day, to get through another day, drinking to relieve the stress of getting through another day. And if I forgot to mention it, alcohol .

As a grudging carer for one, then a second elderly parent, I did not need any money for accommodation or bills. I lived in a house that belonged to them. They paid the bills. I did what was needed and what I had to do. Others were happy to have me there. It didn't just suit me, there were several others with a vested interest in the status quo. I had my faults but there were benefits in it for others allowing them to get on with their lives without interference thank you very much.

Now I have a problem. As you might be aware, Amazon want EVERYBODY selling on their site to " Verify ".

They want a UTR.

So, I had one in 2000. I don't know whether it would be still valid, or whether I need to apply for a new one.

I am about to become homeless again. I have 2 or 3 weeks. I would probably be better off on benefits, as the amount of selling off of my possessions I would have to do just to pay rent in London would be huge, and I could not wait for a good price, it would be a "fire sale". Of course, I would be better off with a job, but I am pretty unemployable, and my previous skills are over a decade out of date. I'm considering emigrating for personal reasons. Life there would be bad, but maybe I could continue to sell my stuff for a while under the radar and just eke out an existance at cheaper than london prices.

Is the " old " UTR valid ?

Do I have to apply for a new UTR given it has been 10 years ?

Would giving it to Amazon trigger a flurry of activity from HMRC ? Would I have to account for the last 10 years ?

I have not been able to sell on Amazon for over a week, and I am going to be in severe financial trouble as each day passers. I have storage bills and payday loans that will be coming up at the end of the month. By next month, I will be homeless and I have no better options than to sleep in my self storage unit, where I have periodically slept in recent months. I need to generate money somehow.

I do not want a complicated life. I do not want to claim benefits . The selling activity is not a viable business, so I do not want the hassle of "running a business" when it returns less than the minimum wage. Stacking shelves would be less mentally stressful and better paid. I do not have a " viable " business, nor could I establish one. It has just been a way to generate money to live.

Should I just bluff Amazon with the old UTR, sell what I can for the next couple of weeks just to survive.

Or would it be best just to let my stuff rot and not open a huge can of worms.

I don't want to sell on eBay. My experiences on there have been hopeless. Prices are a pittance and the maximum listing is 30 days. My possessions are not viable on eBay. My research shows I could buy the same item on eBay and sell it for a profit on Amazon, such is the price disparity. But there is not a business in it ( I don't have the capital to be turnover 20 items a day ).

So

a ) Is the 16 year old UTR valid ?

b ) If it is, what happens if I give it to Amazon ?

c ) What happens if I go to HMRC and ask for a UTR. Will this open a can of worms and questions about the last decade of my life.

d ) What happens if I sell a couple of grands worth of posessions on Amazon over a month or two, then disapear. Having become visible, would I be pursued. It's not like I will owe tax anyway, but I just don't want the hassle. I might be better off just offloading my possessions at a Cash Convertors and disappearing completely.

Thanks for any advice on the UTR. I appreciate it.

RFW

Your UTR is always the same as far as I know.

As for the rest I'd suggest seeking out Citizen's Advice or StepChange (they're at the top of all these forum pages). Whilst you may not consider yourself to be in debt, your back issues need sorting out and they could probably help you do that.

utr121

Thank you.

The UTR, and the implications of breaking "radio silence" with the real world is my main issue. I need to survive for a few months. I don't want to at the expense of opening up a 10 year can of worms that I can't account for.

As for debt, ultimately I was bailed out by family and my ex. All my debts are personal, gathering no interest, nobody is bothering me about them. The family home is being sold. I have been promised an " advance on inheritance " to which I have basically said, no thanks, just take what I owe off it and please settle up with the other individuals. Technically, I owe my mother a lot of money, to which I can say fine, that supposed advanced inheritance, well there is your debt, so now we are quits.

RFW

utr121 wrote: »

As for debt, ultimately I was bailed out by family and my ex. All my debts are personal, gathering no interest, nobody is bothering me about them. The family home is being sold. I have been promised an " advance on inheritance " to which I have basically said, no thanks, just take what I owe off it and please settle up with the other individuals. Technically, I owe my mother a lot of money, to which I can say fine, that supposed advanced inheritance, well there is your debt, so now we are quits.

The tax issue is technically a debt, if you haven't declared anything for ten years then that's a problem that CAB or StepChange could help you with. If you look above on the forums, there's a link to ask them a question. They'd probably help you to sort yourself out and get on an even footing.
I doubt HMRC would be too bothered if you told them your story, you've not got much they can take if they even investigated you.
By the sounds of it you'd get more help than hindrance if you approached an authority. You'll probably qualify for business start up help (local council or library would have help on that).
The last thing the authorities want is you going on the dole when you could be a self employed taxpayer.
The more separate bodies you approach for help the better off you'll be. Start with the two I suggested (CAB and/or StepChange), they are both independent and not government connected, so you wouldn't have to fear them reporting you.

Flyonthewall

RFW wrote: »

The tax issue is technically a debt, if you haven't declared anything for ten years then that's a problem that CAB or StepChange could help you with. If you look above on the forums, there's a link to ask them a question. They'd probably help you to sort yourself out and get on an even footing.
I doubt HMRC would be too bothered if you told them your story, you've not got much they can take if they even investigated you.
By the sounds of it you'd get more help than hindrance if you approached an authority. You'll probably qualify for business start up help (local council or library would have help on that).
The last thing the authorities want is you going on the dole when you could be a self employed taxpayer.
The more separate bodies you approach for help the better off you'll be. Start with the two I suggested (CAB and/or StepChange), they are both independent and not government connected, so you wouldn't have to fear them reporting you.

OP hasn't declared it because there's nothing to declare though so there is no debt there. It's all personal belongings.

Proving it to HMRC may be a little harder if it comes to that, but OP will have some record at least of what they've sold (it'll be on Amazon for a start) and chances are the type of items they've been selling will help back up their story (as no doubt they'd be selling in various categories, one off items, used items etc.).

The OP also stated they didn't want to start a business and what they're doing right now isn't a business.

utr121

Hello,

Well, it is a little more complicated than that, hence my worries.

I could continue for the next decade selling my own possessions. I own thousands of records for example. I have several hundred video games. Some will be worth something, others not. I could, in conjunction with some sort of job or the other, sell online for the next decade. However, it is not a viable business, and won't pay the rent. It would be a hobby. It would be " gravy ".

However, in the past, although I started and continued with personal possessions. However, technically, I did cross the line into " trading ", as needs musts. I needed money. I did what I had to do. If I spotted an opportunity, I took it. Similarly, I did trade in my possessions to places like CEX and I used the credit note to purchase things which would be better sellers. Not all my sales were individual one offs. There are items that I sold 10 of over the years. And there are some DVDs that I found in clearance that I would have a few dozen of. Technically, it would constitute trading, from a business perspective it is not a viable business, but I guess HMRC don't care about that, viable or not, they are just looking at whether you are personal or business. The rest is your problem.

I could continue in the future without ever buying to sell. It would not constitute a business.

I just don't want to open an unessasary can of worms.

I had hassle with taxman and debt and loans and banks and the whole thing, and I don't ever want that stress again.

Amazon's definintion of what is personal and what is business has become insane. They appear to be driving personal sellers off because, rightly, some just don't want the hassle of registering for a business.

I won't qualify as a personal seller in Amazon's view, as a) the volume of stuff I sold, b) the lifetime of my account shows a variety of products where I sold more than 1 c) I sold items listed as "New". All of that makes me a business in their eyes, profit, loss, turnover, viability is irrelevant.

It does not matter to me if I lose the Amazon account and never sell anything again, ever. I'm not bothered. I'll find another way to survive, most obviously a job.

However, I have to survive the next 2 or 3 months, which are going to be a huge upheaval, as I said, I might have to emigrate without even the return fare. I can't see any other way than to sell things on Amazon.

Flyonthewall

utr121 wrote: »

Hello,

Well, it is a little more complicated than that, hence my worries.

I could continue for the next decade selling my own possessions. I own thousands of records for example. I have several hundred video games. Some will be worth something, others not. I could, in conjunction with some sort of job or the other, sell online for the next decade. However, it is not a viable business, and won't pay the rent. It would be a hobby. It would be " gravy ".

However, in the past, although I started and continued with personal possessions. However, technically, I did cross the line into " trading ", as needs musts. I needed money. I did what I had to do. If I spotted an opportunity, I took it. Similarly, I did trade in my possessions to places like CEX and I used the credit note to purchase things which would be better sellers. Not all my sales were individual one offs. There are items that I sold 10 of over the years. And there are some DVDs that I found in clearance that I would have a few dozen of. Technically, it would constitute trading, from a business perspective it is not a viable business, but I guess HMRC don't care about that, viable or not, they are just looking at whether you are personal or business. The rest is your problem.

I could continue in the future without ever buying to sell. It would not constitute a business.

I just don't want to open an unessasary can of worms.

I had hassle with taxman and debt and loans and banks and the whole thing, and I don't ever want that stress again.

Ah right. Well they should really be declared. You get a personal allowance of £10,600 though so chances are for what you did buy to sell woudn't be taxed. Proving how much you bought and sold, I imagine, would be very difficult though.

You may do best getting advice as above.

What I would suggest is keeping proper records from now on of what you do buy and sell (even if personal) so you have proof and figures for if HMRC do investigate you. Won't help for the past years, but at least will help save you from possible future issues.

RFW

utr121 wrote: »

However, I have to survive the next 2 or 3 months, which are going to be a huge upheaval, as I said, I might have to emigrate without even the return fare. I can't see any other way than to sell things on Amazon.

My initial advice still stands, you need to talk to someone who can go through your affairs with you in a professional capacity. If you have a local CAB that would probably be best. You don't seem to have any spare money for an accountant.
From what you've written I'd guess you had some debt that is less than 6 years old, beyond family and friends. If it was possible, StepChange or CAB could do a Debt Relief Order which would effectively wipe out your past and help you start again. That's an over simplified description but could be worth you looking into the pros and cons of.
You may get some help on the debt boards on here too.
Even if HMRC do start asking for documents and past accounts they'd give you time to get it. That said, they probably wouldn't even care any more, they haven't got the resources to investigate people who haven't got any money to give them when they have finished.

If it was me, I'd contact one of the above for advice first then give Amazon my UTR. Presumably you have other id and details that Amazon need? They usually ask for some kind of official HMRC document with the utr on. So, if you want to carry on there you may need to contact HMRC anyway to send new documents to you.