If we vote for Brexit what happens

cells

CLAPTON wrote: »

one could say that the UK pre war was relatively rich compared to non industrial nations
its per capita income would have been much higher if the methods of birth control had been better and the population was constrained.

really? what do you think the outcome of ww1 or ww2 would have been if the UK had 'better population and birth control' and the population was constrained at say 1800 levels of ~9 million

Also how many of the 'indigenous' 60 million or so who live in the UK now are glad that the population was not contained at 10 million?

kabayiri

michaels wrote: »

I am happy to count the money the EU spends in the UK on our behalf as being extra money that coudl be spent at the discretion of the chancellor if we wer not members.
...

Generally speaking, I believe you get better spending when the money providers and money spenders are closer together.

In fact, the government seems to agree, which is why they are giving places like Manchester more autonomy over how they spend the health budget for example.

So it seems against the trend to send money to the EU just so they can decide how it should be spent in my area. I can't really remember the last time Mr Juncker came along to see what needed doing in my village.

Conrad

Cameron & Osborne lies – revealed in the BBC1 Andrew Neil interview June 8th - please circulate this via social media - the public must see the lies;

• Cameron said a few months ago (CBI conference) 'we’ll do ok' outside the EU, now he says leaving will put a bomb under our economy – did he lie then or now?

• Camerons Treasury central forecast is for at worst a brief shallow recession (so shallow that it’s within the margin of error), yet Cameron says we’ll be putting a bomb under the economy – which is lying?

• Osborne says homes will fall in price 28% - Treasury forecast if for a brief minor adjustment – in any event BOE would take moves to avert any recession
• Pensions will reduce – but the legal triple lock prevents this happening and pensions will always keep pace with inflation

• Treasury Select Committee says Camerons £4300 worse off figure (in 2030) is ‘to mis-represent what the Treasury found’
• Promise to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands, pledged in 2010 and 2015 GE manifestos. Gross immigration stands at 700,000+ pa

• Despite promising to cut immigration their economic projections RELY upon massive immigration

• Tory Conference 2014 ‘Limits on free movement’ – Cameron said ‘when I go to Brussels, I will not take no for an answer, I will get what Britain needs’ and yet free movement remains. Now he says ‘If you don’t have a job in 6 months you have to leave’ and yet virtually none have been removed.

• Osborne ‘you cannot come here and claim unemployment benefits for 6 months’ and yet you can claim unemployment benefit after 3 months

• Osborne says immigration has been good for our economy – in the next breath his ambition is to see immigration reduced to tens of thousands

• Cameron on Turkey a few years back – ‘I will remain your greatest possible advocate of Turkish membership to the EU’ and yet today ‘Turkey won’t join for a 1000 years’. Which is the lie?
• Osbourne on Turkey – ‘Turkey is a million miles from joining EU’, so why is a billion £ being spent on preparing for Turkish membership?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07gbjs7/the-andrew-neil-interviews-leave-or-remain-2-george-osborne-mp

Conrad

cells wrote: »

really? what do you think the outcome of ww1 or ww2 would have been if the UK had 'better population and birth control' and the population was constrained at say 1800 levels of ~9 million

Also how many of the 'indigenous' 60 million or so who live in the UK now are glad that the population was not contained at 10 million?

Fair enough cells as long as you one day don't bemoan the mega congestion, the environmental degradation, the relentless demand fed housing crisis (building more homes attracts more migrants) putting home prices beyond the reach of your kids / grandkids, the general sense you can barely find a magic corner in the once glorious English countryside as towns urban become corridors, nor our over-reliance on food imports which could leave us very vulnerable if a global war occurred.


I reckon we have more than enough Humans here and I also hate the fact we applaud us attracting vital talent from poor countries - don't they need nurses and Docs? What of their Baby P's left immensely vulnerable as there's far too few social workers? Remember this next time a smug Tim Farron applauds the fact we greedily hoover up so many migrants to wipe our bums in old age

Conrad

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Conversely the public may not be aware that the rebate can change and has changed in the past.

Last December we got a surprise EU bill for £1.7bn - recall the furore over this - and we quietly settled on a billion I believe shortly after.


Love the way people have such short memories.

Moby

cells wrote: »

There is also an element of luck.
Sweden had a lot of luck in the form of lots of hydro power which were built out and used as economic enablers

The USA has very abundant very cheap coal and oil and a lot of hydro too. The UK and Germany were also gifted with a lot of coal

The world wars also helped Europe and the USA mechanise and learn how to mass produced goods and how to mobilise the whole economy and put people into more productive jobs rather than have almost everyone in the lowest productivity role of subsistence farmers.

The green revolution also played its part. The west got very good at growing crops very projectively all the while India and China and many other countries were starving as they had yet to learn of crop selection and breeding and pest resistance etc. Even when the Americans effectively went out to these poor countries and tried to teach them about the green revolution those countries improved a lot but the information never reached the subsistence farmers even today lots of people on the world farm like they did a thousand years ago.

Education also played a big part. Something as simple as reading allows information to travil and spread and things like good farming or building or medical practises to take hold.


So its been a lot of factors which made the west rich before the rest. However even China and Russia are bow a lot richer than they were 30 years ago again tanks to these non economic model specific traits of education urbanisation mechanisation.

You been reading this Cells?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Guns-Germs-Steel-history-everybody/dp/0099302780

TrickyTree83

Conrad wrote: »

Last December we got a surprise EU bill for £1.7bn - recall the furore over this - and we quietly settled on a billion I believe shortly after.


Love the way people have such short memories.

Yeah that's the point I was making.

I don't agree that Vote Leave are mis-leading the public. Ultimately we are on the hook for 100% of that amount, then EU spending comes back in and we've no say over it (much like a council tax). The rebate we get can be changed depending on which way the wind is blowing in Brussels, on that basis I would exclude it as something we have control over. Therefore the gross figure we're on the hook for is the amount we have control over if we choose to leave.

At least that's how I see it.

CLAPTON

cells wrote: »

really? what do you think the outcome of ww1 or ww2 would have been if the UK had 'better population and birth control' and the population was constrained at say 1800 levels of ~9 million

Also how many of the 'indigenous' 60 million or so who live in the UK now are glad that the population was not contained at 10 million?

yet another one dimensional Cell's argument

so the nonsense about population growth creating greater per capita wealth is now disregarded, and the new argument is that higher population gives us victory should we need to refight WW1

now I'm sure I read another Cell's one dimensional argument about we don't need a steel industry because the next war will only last 10 minutes (but maybe that was another Cell)

try learning a little history and learning how the small off shore country painted half the whole red (and without an electricity grid too)

Moby

Conrad wrote: »

Cameron & Osborne lies – revealed in the BBC1 Andrew Neil interview June 8th - please circulate this via social media - the public must see the lies;

• Cameron said a few months ago (CBI conference) 'we’ll do ok' outside the EU, now he says leaving will put a bomb under our economy – did he lie then or now?

• Camerons Treasury central forecast is for at worst a brief shallow recession (so shallow that it’s within the margin of error), yet Cameron says we’ll be putting a bomb under the economy – which is lying?

• Osborne says homes will fall in price 28% - Treasury forecast if for a brief minor adjustment – in any event BOE would take moves to avert any recession
• Pensions will reduce – but the legal triple lock prevents this happening and pensions will always keep pace with inflation

• Treasury Select Committee says Camerons £4300 worse off figure (in 2030) is ‘to mis-represent what the Treasury found’
• Promise to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands, pledged in 2010 and 2015 GE manifestos. Gross immigration stands at 700,000+ pa

• Despite promising to cut immigration their economic projections RELY upon massive immigration

• Tory Conference 2014 ‘Limits on free movement’ – Cameron said ‘when I go to Brussels, I will not take no for an answer, I will get what Britain needs’ and yet free movement remains. Now he says ‘If you don’t have a job in 6 months you have to leave’ and yet virtually none have been removed.

• Osborne ‘you cannot come here and claim unemployment benefits for 6 months’ and yet you can claim unemployment benefit after 3 months

• Osborne says immigration has been good for our economy – in the next breath his ambition is to see immigration reduced to tens of thousands

• Cameron on Turkey a few years back – ‘I will remain your greatest possible advocate of Turkish membership to the EU’ and yet today ‘Turkey won’t join for a 1000 years’. Which is the lie?
• Osbourne on Turkey – ‘Turkey is a million miles from joining EU’, so why is a billion £ being spent on preparing for Turkish membership?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07gbjs7/the-andrew-neil-interviews-leave-or-remain-2-george-osborne-mp

You want it both ways mate. You're quite happy to swallow their 'lies' when it's a General Election............ but if you end up on the other side like this referendum ....you call them out!:rotfl:

Moby

Conrad wrote: »

Fair enough cells as long as you one day don't bemoan the mega congestion, the environmental degradation, the relentless demand fed housing crisis (building more homes attracts more migrants) putting home prices beyond the reach of your kids / grandkids, the general sense you can barely find a magic corner in the once glorious English countryside as towns urban become corridors, nor our over-reliance on food imports which could leave us very vulnerable if a global war occurred.


I reckon we have more than enough Humans here and I also hate the fact we applaud us attracting vital talent from poor countries - don't they need nurses and Docs? What of their Baby P's left immensely vulnerable as there's far too few social workers? Remember this next time a smug Tim Farron applauds the fact we greedily hoover up so many migrants to wipe our bums in old age

In what way exactly will Brexit reduce immigration?.....and don't say ...'because we will be in control of our own borders'.....because that's tosh!