PCN while loading a vehicle

winged_2001

Hi all,

We recently received a PCN for parking on double yellow lines, but think have a good chance of successful appeal and would like your opinion.

We were parked on our next-door neighbour's narrow driveway in a seaside town to load our car after our trip for NYE. We needed to park here because there is no parking near our property, so it is a necessity to park where we did for unloading/loading.

Double yellow lines run on the road next to the aforementioned driveway and we were parked for no more than 10 minutes. The ticket was issued on the basis that in a 5 minute period the ticket officer observed no loading/unloading to the car. We had been loading the car regularly for 5 minutes and then, quite genuinely, in the offending 5 minutes were saying goodbye to the other couples we'd be staying with.

However, we did come out to check the car and there was a road blockage. In the photos taken by the traffic enforcement officer you can clearly see our car is on the drive, not on the yellow lines or obscuring the road. There is a car in the road to the side of our vehicle, another car behind and a large van in front. I.e. the road was blocked so we couldn't have moved our car when the offence was recorded and photos were taken.

Moreover, our neighbour (who lives opposite) had parked her car in front of us and did not receive a ticket. We believe this is because she's a local and we're technically tourists. Though this is supposition.

Given the above circumstances do you think we have a reasonable chance of success with appeal? On the grounds of the vehicle being blocked in and the ticket officer has been inconsistent in serving tickets (i.e. not doing his/her job properly?).

Thanks

Umkomaas

As we tend to major on private parking tickets here, PePiPoo will be your best bet for council tickets. Here's your link:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=SF&s=&f=30

Have a read through some of the other threads there before you post your own to get the hang of what information they need from you in your opening post - but as a minimum you will need photos/scans of all correspondence you've received from the council (both sides, if appropriate).

PePiPoo has an excellent success record in dealing with council tickets.

HTH

winged_2001

Thanks Umkomass, in the initial (I know you'd want more info as per the PePiPoo), but to get a steer, do you think there's a good case for appeal?

Coupon-mad

Given the above circumstances do you think we have a reasonable chance of success with appeal? On the grounds of the vehicle being blocked in and the ticket officer has been inconsistent in serving tickets (i.e. not doing his/her job properly?).

You never say a CEO wasn't doing their job properly, in your appeal. Basically CEOs issue tickets first, if they can, without much thought process and rely upon the fact most people never appeal and just rush to pay the discount to the council.

Your appeal grounds would be unloading for no more than 10 minutes which is an exempt activity (you would NOT mention saying goodbye to people nor nipping to the loo, etc., just unloading (get a corroborative letter from the neighbour if they will, giving time/date and confirmation that they can confirm you were unloading). Not sure I understand why you were blocked in unless you were actually on the footpath/pavement?

Was your PCN issued for 'restricted street during prescribed hours' or 'on a footpath...'? the former is the description of a double yellows PCN and easier to fight than the latter, IMHO.

winged_2001

Coupon-mad wrote: »

You never say a CEO wasn't doing their job properly, in your appeal. Basically CEOs issue tickets first, if they can, without much thought process and rely upon the fact most people never appeal and just rush to pay the discount to the council.

Oh I wouldn't mention the job thing, just the inconsistency of ticketing.

Your appeal grounds would be unloading for no more than 10 minutes which is an exempt activity (you would NOT mention saying goodbye to people nor nipping to the loo, etc., just unloading (get a corroborative letter from the neighbour if they will, giving time/date and confirmation that they can confirm you were unloading). Not sure I understand why you were blocked in unless you were actually on the footpath/pavement?

Because of the narrowness of the streets the drive is also basically the pavement, we were parked just in front of their garage. So were blocked in by other cars and van from pulling off on to the road.

Was your PCN issued for 'restricted street during prescribed hours' or 'on a footpath...'? the former is the description of a double yellows PCN and easier to fight than the latter, IMHO.

The first one.

Coupon-mad

No, not even 'inconsistency', it's never relevant. You were unloading, it's exempt, here's some corroborative evidence. FULL STOP!

The first one.

Good. I predict you will win, in the end, then because reasonable/short time unloading is exempt on a double yellow on street.

NB TO NEWBIES - NOT THE SAME IF PRIVATE LAND!

But most councils turn down first appeals, hence why corroboration from a neighbour about the unloading activity will assist to push them maybe to actually cancel, early doors, rather than make you jump through 2 more hoops before you achieve that. Plus, give them some details - maybe photos - of what was being unloaded to show it was bulky stuff - add the fact that the CEO only appears to have observed for the bare minimum of 5 minutes but you were merely unloading those items in the house in those few minutes, going upstairs to the right room, etc. (not saying goodbye or popping to the loo...nothing else except unloading!).

So the CEO didn't see you but it's a fact that the activity was wholly exempt in those 5 minutes. DO NOT say you were 'parked' and do not say 'we were there ten minutes'. You do not have to give them anything more than the 5 minutes they have. They'll likely lose if it goes to adjudication as long as you play this right and miss no deadlines.

winged_2001

Is 5 minutes the minimum, or the excepted? I mean is it written somewhere in law that 10 minutes is allowable? Because they've specifically quoted 5 minutes without loading/unloading seen by the CEO.

If I was loading for 5 minutes, then during the observed 5 minutes I wasn't loading, but couldn't move the car because it was blocked in by other vehicles on the road be case enough for a successful appeal?

Why is the inconsistency irrelevant? I would think if parking law isn't being applied evenly or fairly with photographic evidence that can be checked, that's case for penalty dismissal, like it would be in criminal cases?

Coupon-mad

You can unload for a reasonable time, e.g. up to 20 minutes can be argued to be reasonable if you were a credible and truthful witness if it went to adjudication. For example, someone having to carry and manoeuvre a large framed painting upstairs to a 6th floor flat and deliver it,and get a signature, then walk back down, would take more than 5 minutes, especially if the car wasn't directly outside!

The CEO only has to observe and see no evidence of anyone loading/unloading for a minimum of 5 minutes, so the CEO wasn't wrong to issue it. So you are both 'right'. IMHO you will win when you contest it though. If more people knew this it would be great!

during the observed 5 minutes I wasn't loading, but couldn't move the car because it was blocked in by other vehicles on the road be case enough for a successful appeal?

Please - do NOT mention any of that. I post on pepipoo as SchoolRunMum so like a few other posters here on MSE, I know how to appeal Council tickets too and genuine unloading appeals are among the easiest to win.

Do not quantify time, do not mention 'ten minutes' or 'blocked in'. You will muddy the clear waters.

They have 5 minutes observed, you were inside the premises with stuff you were unloading and the CEO didn't see you at that time but it doesn't mean you were not unloading indoors.

Why is the inconsistency irrelevant?

Because it isn't relevant to the appeal. You could have a row of 20 cars and only one gets a PCN but the appeal would not be won by a misguided argument about inconsistent ticketing.

The facts are:

- the CEO issued a PCN
- the CEO was right to issue it having observed for 5 mins BUT
- you were unloading
- you are right to appeal
- you should win the appeal

winged_2001

Thanks Coupon-mad really appreciate your comments!

Just to be annoying, I won't mention it in my response, but I'd like to know if being blocked in by other vehicles is also reason enough to rescind the penalty? As I couldn't have moved the car following the loading process.

It's interesting the inconsistent point isn't a reason for appeal in itself. That strikes me as totally ridiculous (I'm not saying you're wrong, but the system is bonkers). It's a similar claim to discrimination.

The_Deep

I understand that about 60 percent of council tickets are overturned on appeal.

Coupon-mad

The_Deep wrote: »

I understand that about 60 percent of council tickets are overturned on appeal.

Maybe true - I'm sure well over 90% win on pepipoo; maybe 99% of loading appeals win on pepipoo which is why I'm so confident about this one.

I'd like to know if being blocked in by other vehicles is also reason enough to rescind the penalty? As I couldn't have moved the car following the loading process.

No, not as cut and dried as a clear exemption like loading.

You have your get out of jail free card, use it wisely.