dishonest vendor, can we claim expenses?

Devon_Chris

P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } I'm aware that should a house fall through before contracts are exchanged then there's nothing that can be done to claim back any expenses.


However... We are lucky enough to be cash buyers. We put an offer on a property which was accepted. It was clear 'cowboy' vendors had renovated the property and the accepted offer reflected that. We had further concerns over a loft conversion and asked at the beginning whether it had the proper permissions/ building regs – we were told yes (verbally). We proceeded from there. After a large amount of time getting towards exchanging contracts, we were still waiting for a copy of the regs aswell as the promised electrical, gas certs etc. We then heard from the vendor that there were no regulations for the loft. We re-attended the property with a builder and discovered a 'hidden' hatch behind stuff that led into the eaves and found that the joists were fitted in a structurally unsafe way, and with other discovered issues, we would be looking at 20 grand plus to put right. The seller refused to negotiate and withdrew from the sale.


We feel that the seller was dishonest from the start. The house was advertised as a 3 bedroom although as 2 bedrooms did not have the regs; I believe it can only be advertised as a 1 bed - is this mis-advertising? Do we have any comeback for the surveyor and solicitor fees? I believe that the vendor filled out the info form with the estate agent saying that it did have the relevant permissions. Our solicitor says we have no case, although i'm not sure of their impartiality.


If anyone has nay advice out there, we'd really like to move on one way or another!


Cheers

booksurr

contracts were not exchanged, you did a survey and established the facts

you have no basis for a claim,

you have my sympathy

Pete9501

Sorry, but you haven't a hope. However, you have had a lucky escape. Imagine buying it and then finding out it needs £20k to put right.

However, a snotty letter in writing to the estate agent would be my approach. You won't get any cash back but the EA can take it out on the vendor. You never know, it might be back on the market in a month at £20k less which would be interesting and an offer of £25k less, appropriate.

Pete

matttye

If you had exchanged you might have had a claim under the Misrepresentation Act but as far as I'm aware you have absolutely no remedy as you didn't enter a contract to buy the property.

Davesnave

Just send your main findings by letter to the estate agent and move on. As above, if you wish, you could still offer a realistically revised amount, then step back and see what transpires.

While EAs now have a duty of disclosure, you'll have no way to check whether they will do this with any potential buyers in the future, just as you cannot be sure how much they knew when first advertising the house.

This scenario is frequently part and parcel of buying older, 'improved' property. Even if you have a full survey, it won't protect you from extra expenses which only come to light during renovations. You should allow for unknowns in your budgeting if you intend tackling a house with some history.

theartfullodger

In your shoes I would write (yes, WRITE! - keep copies) to vendor & agent a calm, polite letter noting s2 of Fraud Act 2006 "Fraud by Misrepresentation" both a civil & criminal offence
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/section/2

2 Fraud by false representation

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b) intends, by making the representation—
(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

(2) A representation is false if—
(a) it is untrue or misleading, and
(b) the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.

(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a) the person making the representation, or
(b) any other person.

(4) A representation may be express or implied.

(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).

& s1(3)

(3) A person who is guilty of fraud is liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or to both);
(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or to a fine (or to both).

& invite their comments on the matter.

Before doing so make sure you have copies/screen-shots of adverts, emails etc etc..

These little scroats need a good kickin' & I hope you give one...

Having said that perhaps next time be rather more diligent in your initial examinations...

matttye

theartfullodger wrote: »

In your shoes I would write (yes, WRITE! - keep copies) to vendor & agent a calm, polite letter noting s2 of Fraud Act 2006 "Fraud by Misrepresentation" both a civil & criminal offence
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/section/2

& s1(3)
& invite their comments on the matter.

Before doing so make sure you have copies/screen-shots of adverts, emails etc etc..

These little scroats need a good kickin' & I hope you give one...

Having said that perhaps next time be rather more diligent in your initial examinations...

Difficulty is proving the dishonesty part and even that he knew it was untrue or misleading. The seller could just say either (a) he didn't say it or (b) he did say it but thought he had the regs.

theartfullodger

The advert "3 beds..." when no sign-off for 2 of the "bedrooms" would be a bit of a hint ....

Also worth checking room measurements against legal requirements for single & double bedrooms....
http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/repairs_and_bad_conditions/common_problems/overcrowding

Floor area

The minimum floor area considered enough for your family is:

70 - 89 square feet (6.5 - 8.4 square metres) for 1 person
90 - 109 square feet (8.4 -10 square metres) for 1.5 people
110 square feet (10.2 square metres) for 2 people

so, for example, a 3mtr by 3mtr room (9sq mtrs) cannot be advertised as a double bedroom ...weird that so many letting & selling agents don't seem familiar with this eh??

lincroft1710

theartfullodger wrote: »

The advert "3 beds..." when no sign-off for 2 of the "bedrooms" would be a bit of a hint ....

Also worth checking room measurements against legal requirements for single & double bedrooms....
http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/repairs_and_bad_conditions/common_problems/overcrowding
so, for example, a 3mtr by 3mtr room (9sq mtrs) cannot be advertised as a double bedroom ...weird that so many letting & selling agents don't seem familiar with this eh??

I don't think these room sizes refer just to bedrooms, it seems to be total living space. I don't think there is any law which sets down minimum sizes for rooms, certainly not for owner occupied properties.

davidmcn

theartfullodger wrote: »

The advert "3 beds..." when no sign-off for 2 of the "bedrooms" would be a bit of a hint ....

Also worth checking room measurements against legal requirements for single & double bedrooms....
http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/repairs_and_bad_conditions/common_problems/overcrowding
so, for example, a 3mtr by 3mtr room (9sq mtrs) cannot be advertised as a double bedroom ...weird that so many letting & selling agents don't seem familiar with this eh??

Surely those limits are only relevant to properties being let, and owner-occupiers are free to overcrowd themselves if they want?

societys_child

Our solicitor says we have no case

Don't you believe your solicitor?