Deprivation of Capital

FrankR

Hello,

My Son received just over £22,000 in inheritance when his father died in May.

At this time, he was studying at University until his mental health became significantly worse in July and he ran away to sleep homeless for up to one month.

His University reported him as a missing person and he was placed on the missing persons list.

In mid July, the police found him and he returned home to live with me (his mother).

However, during his period of homelessness throughout July, he had spent - or lost - over £16,000 of his savings.

My son cannot recall how the money was spent. He said he 'lost the majority of it sleeping homeless'.

At the beginning of August he had returned home to me and we put in a claim for ESA and PIP.

At this time my son had only around £100 in his bank account.

He was awarded support group ESA and PIP.

As my son only had around £100 at the time of applying for ESA, and the fact that he had 'lost' most of his inheritance sleeping homeless due to his poor mental health, is this a case of deprivation of capital?

I should add that my Son cannot manage his finances himself - he had lost £800 the year before when he was sleeping homeless in London - he was found as placed in a mental Health hospital for one month.

I fear that the DWP may incorrectly assume that he had purposely lost his £22,000 inheritance during May and, June and in order to qualify for income based ESA in early August.

At the time my son was sleeping homeless, he was not aware that he could claim ESA and has never claimed ESA prior to his first claim in August.

My son has emails he sent to University staff detailing his intentions to sleep homeless and become an 'HGV driver' - this was July - the month before his claim for ESA.

Also, in July, we went to our local Job Centre in order to sign on to JSA - however, my son's advisor told him that he should make a claim for ESA - I am sure she can substantiate this should the DWP decide deprivation of capital...

If so, there is no chance we are paying back the ESA he has received since July, and will fight for justice in court.

I believe the only evidence the DWP have is his bank statements to which they can access.

From this bank statements, they may incorrectly assume that large withdrawals were 'purposely' made by my son in order to qualify to claim to a then unknown income based ESA claim three months in the future.

I do believe that the evidence we have is stronger than their 'assumptions' - i.e. emails to his personal tutors, his interview with his advisor at the Job centre, and his terrible mental state during those three months - May to August.

My Son's mental health is incredibly complex - he can spend months not leaving his house, to months sleeping homeless and being reported as a missing person.

If we have to go to court, I would rather pay court fees than pay back the DWP money my Son does not owe them - what does this process involve?

Advice Welcome. Thanks

FrankR

I know I should have taken care of my sons finances myself and it was wrong of me to let my son have control of such a large amount of money - however - I had little choice.

I did not have access to my sons bank accounts at the time he slept homeless

As crazy as it sounds, my son literally had thousands of pounds of cash in a rucksack he was carrying around sleeping homeless - he did not understand the concept of money - and literally lost thousands out of his pockets sleeping on hard concrete floors outside.

I know the DWP may purposely assume that he lost this money in order to claim Income based ESA three months in the future - but their assumption assumes my son was a rational human being when he slept homeless.

He has periods of phycosis and paranoia - he becomes dissacotiative with his surroundings, meaning he is not aware of his actions.

I know it seems contradictory - my son is not rational yet he was a university student, but there is a fine line between sanity and insanity and my son is no longer sane due to his degenerative mental health - he has been rehabilitated and has had ample amounts of mental health support since a young age.

FrankR

Last year he was found by the police wearing just a white linen sheet he had wrapped around himself - no shoes, had soiled himself countless times and was loitering on train tracks in a London train station - he was then detained by the police under the mental health act and spent long periods of recovery in a mental health hospital.

Again the same thing happened but to a lesser extent three months ago - and I do not know most of what my son did - he cannot recall most of his actions due to his illness

How can someone of that mental state have the concern for money and Potential ESA claims three months in the future?

The last thing on his mind was money surely.

kazzah

perhaps you should consider applying to the DWP to be your sons appointee for the purposes of his benefits payment and if he inherits any money in the future set up a discretionary trust fund so he cannot access the money himself.

I'm sorry I can't answer about the ESA - I don't know enough about that - but I didn't want to read and run

vlad

I doubt very much that it would be counted as DOC,might be an idea to get some help/advice from CAB

Londonsu

FrankR wrote: »

Hello,

My Son received just over £22,000 in inheritance when his father died in May.

At this time, he was studying at University until his mental health became significantly worse in July and he ran away to sleep homeless for up to one month.

His University reported him as a missing person and he was placed on the missing persons list.

In mid July, the police found him and he returned home to live with me (his mother).

However, during his period of homelessness throughout July, he had spent - or lost - over £16,000 of his savings.

My son cannot recall how the money was spent. He said he 'lost the majority of it sleeping homeless'.

At the beginning of August he had returned home to me and we put in a claim for ESA and PIP.

At this time my son had only around £100 in his bank account.

He was awarded support group ESA and PIP.

As my son only had around £100 at the time of applying for ESA, and the fact that he had 'lost' most of his inheritance sleeping homeless due to his poor mental health, is this a case of deprivation of capital?

I should add that my Son cannot manage his finances himself - he had lost £800 the year before when he was sleeping homeless in London - he was found as placed in a mental Health hospital for one month.

I fear that the DWP may incorrectly assume that he had purposely lost his £22,000 inheritance during May and, June and in order to qualify for income based ESA in early August.

At the time my son was sleeping homeless, he was not aware that he could claim ESA and has never claimed ESA prior to his first claim in August.

My son has emails he sent to University staff detailing his intentions to sleep homeless and become an 'HGV driver' - this was July - the month before his claim for ESA.

Also, in July, we went to our local Job Centre in order to sign on to JSA - however, my son's advisor told him that he should make a claim for ESA - I am sure she can substantiate this should the DWP decide deprivation of capital...

If so, there is no chance we are paying back the ESA he has received since July, and will fight for justice in court.

I believe the only evidence the DWP have is his bank statements to which they can access.

From this bank statements, they may incorrectly assume that large withdrawals were 'purposely' made by my son in order to qualify to claim to a then unknown income based ESA claim three months in the future.

I do believe that the evidence we have is stronger than their 'assumptions' - i.e. emails to his personal tutors, his interview with his advisor at the Job centre, and his terrible mental state during those three months - May to August.

My Son's mental health is incredibly complex - he can spend months not leaving his house, to months sleeping homeless and being reported as a missing person.

If we have to go to court, I would rather pay court fees than pay back the DWP money my Son does not owe them - what does this process involve?

Advice Welcome. Thanks

What assumptions? has he actually been denied benefits or been investigated??


The deprivation of assets rule is fair and everyone including pensioners who 'overspend' their pension pots are subject to it which is how it should be, however his mental health state may go some way in persuading any investigation that it was not a deliberate deprivation in order to get benefits, especially as you say at the time he wasn't intending to claim so it should be clear there is no intent.


But if there is an investigation you would be better off supporting him and helping him rather then taking an aggressive stance talking about money not owed and justice, remember until they have all the facts the investigators do not know your son and will treat him the same as everyone else.

iammumtoone

Has he answered the questions on the forms correctly? I don't know what you have to declare for ESA but when I was applying for JSA (a few years ago now, things might have changed) They asked for my current savings and if I had savings previously for more than this within a certain period (I think it was 6 months but can't be sure)

If he has been truthful then you have nothing the hide and all you can do is tell the truth and let the decision maker decide. If that comes back with the answer you don't want THEN you start to fight your case (MP etc) until then don't waste your energy fighting just be helpful, truthful and provide all the evidence to support your case you can.

FrankR

He has not been accused of deprivation of capital

But

Yesterday he received a letter from the DWP telling him they have overpaid ESA due to a cross over with a £200 month pension he also receives.

They said that we did not tell them about this - clearly we did as they have been deducting 46.50 from his ESA since November.

They said he was overpaid August and September

He was receiving assessment rate ESA £57 week during these two months and £50 month pension

His pension stopped for a couple of months due to the transition from full time education to PIP.

Today he was called by a jobs worth man who was cold and not at all compassionate - treating us like a number - reducing our problems to nothing kind of a bloke - who told us about the overpayment

At first I was confused but soon agreed with his claim that me son was overpaid ESA in August-September

He could not divulge figures as they have yet to be calculated

I estimate that my son was overpaid 200-400 in ESA

Because ...

In those two months he was getting assessment rate ESA of £57 a week and £50 pension

He should have got about £7 a week as the pension should have been deducted from the assessment rate ESA.

I agree to pay this back as it is only fair - BUT

I want £15 a week to be deducted from his on going ESA until the overpayment is paypid off

I will not be happy if the DWP impose a £50 civil penalty and think this overpaid was done into intentionally and is fraud.

The horrible man said the DWP will write to us in the couple of weeks with figures

I am now worrying in case they see the £22,000 and launch a deprivation of capital investigation - I fear this letter is going to come soon

But he did not mention anything about his amount on the phone today - but it may eventually be noticed and they may make ridiculous and wrong assumptions as to why the £22,000'was spent so quickly without fully understanding the situation.

marliepanda

Honestly if you are half as aggressive and confrontational on the phone with DWP as you are on here, to complete strangers, I am not at all surprised there are 'horrible' people on the end of the phone.

You need to take financial control over your son if he is to help himself. Look into getting power of attorney, and explain the loss of money in a less aggressive way than you have here.

My son has mental health issues - he lived rough - he did not understand the concept of money and lost it all.

You say he had 22k, lost 16k and now only had £100 (as of August) where did the other 6k go?

Most banks have withdrawal limits of only £250-300 a day, they may ask how he spent 100days worth of withdrawals in only a couple of weeks in July during homelessness? How did he lose the money, but not his bank card?

iammumtoone

Respectfully I think you should try to stop reading too much into horror stories. Yes there are horror stores on the net about Deprecation of capital, lots of them, but they make good stories. You don't hear about all the cases where people have been accused but got it sorted it, this doesn't make very good reading. I have no idea what the official figures are but not all cases that are investigated will be proven.

Unfortunately it is your/yours sons responsibility to make sure the payments are correct. This is not easy to work out I appreciate that but if there has been an over payment, it will have to be paid back and I dont think you have the right to dictate how and when it is paid back. I believe there are rules which state what percentage of the money can be taken back at once in these situations hopefully someone will be along soon to advise if this is the case.

FrankR

I have the £6k - he gave it to me when he returned home after sleeping homeless in July.
the DWP sent out this letter just before Christmas too - it would seem the !!!!!!s find destroying our and possibly other people's Christmas amusing.

The letter states you have until the 01/01/2016 to respond - New Year's Day

I would laugh if I wasn't so !!!!ed off

The DWP hired ATOS the killers and deserve to be treated aggressively as they treat others aggressively themselves

!!!!