Can my boss prioritise annual leave allocation for those with kids first?

sangie595

fairy_lights wrote: »

Except OP's childfree colleagues might be quite grateful that he has brought this up with HR so they don't have to.

And that means that (a) there are any and (b) they are too cowardly to do it themselves and (c) they are in the majority and (d)they agree with the OP. As I observed before, "what people want" when it comes to negotiations is often a long way being happy with the result. Having your say is often not what one expects or hopes. I, for example, am rather disappointed that the last general election didn't make the right decision despite me having voted. I am not about to get happier with the result just because I wasn't in a majority.

And of course they also might not be happy if it results in an outcome that they didn't want - assuming that people with children are the only ones who think priority should go to parents at Christmas is coming to unsupported conclusions. I think priority should go to parents at Christmas too, and I have no children. And that was exactly what I thought when I worked public holidays, and was always one of the ones who worked Christmas so that parents didn't need to. But I guess altruism or being permitted a different opinion are things that have died out since then.

SandC

sangie595 wrote: »

It has never been my experience that negotiation or consultation results in everyone being happy - those who don't get what they want are always unhappy about it. Strangely, they usually still think it's unfair on them.

Of course the employer actually does have another alternative open to them - they can tell everyone when their holidays will be taken, full stop. Then everyone can be equally unhappy and at least they will still have something to moan about. And if they are all moaning about it, then at least the staff will all be on one side - won't they???

True, guess you're right. But at least it wouldn't alienate everyone without children simply because they hadn't even been asked. Communication goes a long way to helping people be flexible with each other.

I stand by what I said with regards to working so that those with children can get time off. I'd volunteer for sure for Xmas day, New Year's day or any bank holiday but this scenario is concerned with the days in between those public holidays. I did used to quite want a holiday at Easter time but in one job it was difficult to get time off as those with children generally wanted to be off during the school hols if they could. Difference being had I put my leave request in I probably would have been granted it, not overlooked in favour of all parents without any thought or consideration.

fairy_lights

sangie595 wrote: »

I think priority should go to parents at Christmas too, and I have no children. And that was exactly what I thought when I worked public holidays, and was always one of the ones who worked Christmas so that parents didn't need to. But I guess altruism or being permitted a different opinion are things that have died out since then.

Well if the other non-parents in OP's workplace also think that parents should have priority over time off at Christmas, then they can choose not to take holiday at that time, which would be very charitable of them. But if they don't agree with that view, then they should have the choice to request Christmas off as well.

melysion

Christmas isn't just for parents with children so I will never agree to them having preferential treatment. I know, how terribly selfish of me but it could be argued that it's the parents who are actually being selfish in demanding all the special days off to the detriment of everyone else.

It should be fair - which means that everyone regardless of their family situation get some special days off and some not. There's no justification in forcing childless people to miss every single Christmas day due to working because there are parents in the workplace. Grossly unfair.

p00hsticks

sangie595 wrote: »

And of course they also might not be happy if it results in an outcome that they didn't want - assuming that people with children are the only ones who think priority should go to parents at Christmas is coming to unsupported conclusions. I think priority should go to parents at Christmas too, and I have no children. And that was exactly what I thought when I worked public holidays, and was always one of the ones who worked Christmas so that parents didn't need to. But I guess altruism or being permitted a different opinion are things that have died out since then.

That's easily resolved if those who think priority should go to parents with young children and don't have them simply don't ask for the time off. The whole thing only becomes an issue if more employees actually want that time off than can be spared

I can understand why parents with young children want the time off, but there are other reasons why people might also want it - adult children might want to visit elderly parents for what might be their last christmas together, and those who rely on public transport might find that the disruption to timetables makes it difficult or expensive for them to get to work and would prefer not to have to do it. Some Christians might even have religious reasons why they don't want to work on Christmas day.

I don't think that anyone should have to justify WHY they want time off or be reduced to arguing that their reasons are more or less important than anyone elses.

In my opinion, everyone should be asked what days they want off and if not everyone can get what they want then a fair way of allocating who gets followed. There are any number of ways you can do this - you could give people who worked last year priority, or limit the number of days everyone can take off everyone take so many days off (e.g. those who are off Christmas Eve must work New Years Eve etc)

FBaby

Spoke to HR and it wasn't company policy so they spoke with the manager and have cancelled everyone's leave and asked everyone who wants the three days over Xmas to submit it and I guess its going to be a lottery as to who gets it rather than based on lifestyle choices.

However much your position that the internal policy wasn't fair was reasonable, the way you went about just stinks and frankly, if you were my colleague, whether I had the time of or not, I would have told you what I thought.

If you were so unhappy about it last year, why did you not bring it up in the New Year, or any time rather than two weeks before people the event? Did you consider for a second that people had already made plans and that even if the agreement was unfair, it wasn't their fault? Did you consider for a second that even those who didn't agree with the principle had actually arrange their own plans around their working days and not care to change it even if it means they can have the time off because it is too late to plan what they would have otherwise?

You acted totally selfishly the way you went about dealing with this problem. Good luck working with your boss and team mates in the new year. I would want nothing to do with someone like you who clearly just enjoys steering trouble just for the sake of it.

TBagpuss

p00hsticks wrote: »

I can understand why parents with young children want the time off, but there are other reasons why people might also want it - adult children might want to visit elderly parents for what might be their last christmas together, and those who rely on public transport might find that the disruption to timetables makes it difficult or expensive for them to get to work and would prefer not to have to do it. Some Christians might even have religious reasons why they don't want to work on Christmas day.

I don't think that anyone should have to justify WHY they want time off or be reduced to arguing that their reasons are more or less important than anyone elses.

In my opinion, everyone should be asked what days they want off and if not everyone can get what they want then a fair way of allocating who gets followed. There are any number of ways you can do this - you could give people who worked last year priority, or limit the number of days everyone can take off everyone take so many days off (e.g. those who are off Christmas Eve must work New Years Eve etc)

I agree with all of this. There are all sorts of reasons for people to want Christmas off. Having young children is just one reason among many.

In addition to the examples given, christmas is often a time when families get together - so one person's work commitments don't just effect that person, it can also have a knock on effect on their extended family, which may well include small children.

It's the same with other popular times. I don't have children. If I holiday alone, or with other friends or family who don't have children, then I would normally aim for times outside the school holidays, both for my benefit (potentially cheaper travel, smaller crowds) and that of my colleagues who do want school holidays. But sometimes I go on holiday with friends or family with children, and then my need for time off during school holidays is no different to that of a parent.

And in some respects it is easier to create the magic of christmas on a day other than christmas day for very young children

Poppie68

sangie595 wrote: »

And that means that (a) there are any and (b) they are too cowardly to do it themselves and (c) they are in the majority and (d)they agree with the OP. As I observed before, "what people want" when it comes to negotiations is often a long way being happy with the result. Having your say is often not what one expects or hopes. I, for example, am rather disappointed that the last general election didn't make the right decision despite me having voted. I am not about to get happier with the result just because I wasn't in a majority.

And of course they also might not be happy if it results in an outcome that they didn't want - assuming that people with children are the only ones who think priority should go to parents at Christmas is coming to unsupported conclusions. I think priority should go to parents at Christmas too, and I have no children. And that was exactly what I thought when I worked public holidays, and was always one of the ones who worked Christmas so that parents didn't need to. But I guess altruism or being permitted a different opinion are things that have died out since then.

So your saying parents needs are more important than others in the workplace?


Should older parents or child free employees bow down for every parent during Easter, summer and Christmas? Lots of others have many reasons they want to spend Christmas with their families and should be afforded exactly the same opportunity for time off....

It's sad to think people really do believe some people are more important than others.

kerri_gt

So (if I read correctly) at OPs workplace, if all xmas leave it now being cancelled and reallocated / applied for - what happens for those who have already made plans?

Some may have already booked to go away where they cannot cancel or will lose out financially if they do, or those who have just made plans to catch up with friends on X day thinking they had it off (those friends in turn may have also adjusted plans and so on).

If I had followed procedure and booked leave, I'd be mightily p*ssed off to have that changed without very good reason (i.e someone is taken ill and therefore leave had to be cancelled / postponed).

Poppie68

HR have given in far to easy on the back of one complaint, I think they have maybe been fielding other complaints lately and the OP's was the deciding factor..
It's management's fault nobody else's, it's a terrible system to have in place and a sure way to court complaints...