An Experiment in Basic Income

cotleigh

The big problem with Basic Income in these days of large-scale migration is that if one country introduced it, it would become a massive magnet for lots of desperate poor people for whom the "basic income" would mean a lot. Which would then ruin the whole thing by adding more "taker-outers" from the state kitty.

kinger101

mwpt wrote: »

- In particular (but not limited to) NO HOUSING BENEFIT as a separate concept. CI should be the income that allows people to choose their own outcomes, meaning they will have to do as any other working person does and choose somewhere that is within their means to live. Housing benefit separate to CI will wreck the concept. I hope Finland realise this.

Although this on the surface seams fair, as people should cut their cloth accordingly, I think the large differences in rental prices across the country would be a barrier to implementation.

Or perhaps the market rate for unskilled labour in London might just increase one vacancies start going unfilled. With is fair enough, as the end-user should pay.

Shakethedisease

mwpt wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/new-zealand-plan-to-give-everyone-a-citizens-wage-and-scrap-benefits-a6932136.html

More momentum for this idea. I actually smiled a bit about this, more progression as we civilise. The world is changing.

In advanced economies we've been going the "wrong" way in terms of equality for a while now. That's fine, I don't particularly care if productive people are rewarded more for efforts, in fact that is good, but in a practical world we need to care for everyone. If the trend continues there will come a time where people need to work less and less and some form of citizens income will become almost mandatory.

I wish for the day where I don't have to hear another right wing talking about benefit scroungers and another left wing talking about vile bedroom taxes.

The SNP are quite keen on looking into it as well. I was going to post this on the other thread but here seems more appropriate.

SNP conference backs universal basic income for independent Scotland

The Scottish National Party’s conference has backed the principle of a universal basic income to replace the current welfare system.
SNP members agreed a motion stating that “conference believes that a basic or universal income can potentially provide a foundation to eradicate poverty, make work pay and ensure all our citizens can live in dignity”.
The motion called for more research into the impact of the policy, which would unconditionally give all citizens an income from the state.

Members also agreed that a basic income should be considered as a possibility when designing the welfare state of an independent Scotland.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/universal-basic-income-snp-scotland-independent-conference-vote-a6931846.html

kabayiri

cotleigh wrote: »

The big problem with Basic Income in these days of large-scale migration is that if one country introduced it, it would become a massive magnet for lots of desperate poor people for whom the "basic income" would mean a lot. Which would then ruin the whole thing by adding more "taker-outers" from the state kitty.

This may be true but shouldn't an European state like Finland be allowed to trial this sort of experiment before it is accessible by all the citizens of Europe?

It's difficult enough I should imagine working out new innovations in social policy without the risk of people gaming the system from elsewhere. Once it is bedded in and proven then that is different.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The SNP are quite keen on looking into it as well. I was going to post this on the other thread but here seems more appropriate.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/universal-basic-income-snp-scotland-independent-conference-vote-a6931846.html

well, obviously the English couldn't trial this in Scotland as it would be another poll tax moment

antrobus

CLAPTON wrote: »

well, obviously the English couldn't trail this in Scotland as it would be another poll tax moment

And even more obviously the Scottish couldn't trial this in Scotland, because they haven't got any foxin money.:)

mwpt

cotleigh wrote: »

The big problem with Basic Income in these days of large-scale migration is that if one country introduced it, it would become a massive magnet for lots of desperate poor people for whom the "basic income" would mean a lot. Which would then ruin the whole thing by adding more "taker-outers" from the state kitty.

You're talking about EU migration? I believe the proposed solution to that is you would have to have been contributing to the system for a certain number of years before you become eligible. Legal within the EU framework because it applies to all EU nationals alike (UK too). It's a compromise on the ethos of CI but seems a pragmatic compromise.

mwpt

https://www.janus.com/bill-gross-investment-outlook?utm_campaign=Bill%20Gross%20Feb%20IO&utm_medium=social%20&utm_source=twitter&utm_content=Bill_Gross_Feb

More writing on this.

I still see it as almost inevitable. Robots are going to make things cheaper and cheaper anyway so it might turn out that affording a UBI is easier than many people think. The main problem of course being our stupidly high land costs, and I also don't think those need to be so high.

CLAPTON

If robots can produce the goods and services we need/want with far fewer people then we enter star trek world where is a universal surplus.

obviously, with the UK climate, our population would plunge as people seek life in warmer parts.

nonsense like UBI would have little meaning

I guess regions would compete for 'interesting' and 'diverse' peoples to lighten the burden of constantly enjoying one self.

Malthusian

cotleigh wrote: »

The big problem with Basic Income in these days of large-scale migration is that if one country introduced it, it would become a massive magnet for lots of desperate poor people for whom the "basic income" would mean a lot. Which would then ruin the whole thing by adding more "taker-outers" from the state kitty.

Not really. A basic income is just supposed to keep body and soul together and a roof over the head. If you're an immigrant and arrive in Britain with no intention of working then this will already be provided for you. No extra incentive to move to Britain would be created.

Plus, as others have said, there is nothing to stop us requiring people to have worked for a certain number of years to become eligible. Although frankly I don't believe there is the political will to allow immigrants to starve on the streets if they cannot or will not work.

There would if anything be less reason for poor people to emigrate to Britain. Currently British people are excluded from numerous low-paid jobs because the state a) makes it too expensive to employ them b) taxes them at effective rates of up to 90% (after loss of benefits). So these jobs go on the black market. Which means they are largely taken by illegal immigrants, people who have less to lose by being caught. If we have a basic income we would need far fewer people outside the system to do low-paid jobs.