Which Fence Is Mine?

AndyBSG

First off, apologies if this should have been in another forum but couldn't seem to find any that fit.

I moved into my new property earlier this year and have no idea which fence is mine. The following are the facts I am aware of(All references to left or right mean as you face the front of the house).

- There is no 'T' mark on our title deeds to indicate ownership.

- The neighbour to the right of us has recently replaced the fences on his left(the fence we share with him), right and rear of his house and after a chat with him he said that because he was end terrace he is responsible for both sides.

- This leads me to believe the fence on the left of our property is my responsibility.

- Our 'sellers information' pack we got when moving in states that we own '"The fence to the left of the property as you look from the road". That should make it fairly obvious... Except for the fact there is no road at the front of our house, it is pedestrianised fronting onto the fence of a school. There is however a road at the rear to allow access to the garages.

The fence to our left is in a fairly shoddy state and if it does belong to me I want to replace it. However, two weeks ago our neighbour on that side put a bit of trellis on top of one of the panels.

I have no idea if that means he thinks it's his or not.

Unfortunately, we do not speak to the neighbours on that side as we are currently in a property dispute with them after they built an extension without planning permission and ripped all of our fascia's and lead flashing down to do so as well building it using a boundary wall of ours that was not a party wall.

Who do I ultimately contact to confirm 100% which fence is mine? The property in question was built in the 70's so not sure I can even find out who the developers were or even if they will still exist. Would the Land registry have this information?

Cheers for any help as I appear to be up against a bit of a brick wall

AndyBSG

Oh, and if the fence does turn out to be mine, what are my responsibilities regarding the bit of trellis he has put up on it?

I'm just going to replace the fence panels from my side as soon as I get confirmation they are mine without notifying him so plan on just leaving the trellis in his garden

moneyistooshorttomention

As far as I have been able to figure things out to date:

- the fence/wall/etc belongs to whichever house put it up in the first place

- this fence/wall may (or may not) have been sited in the correct place (ie exactly within the land owned by the home-owner that put it up in the first place).

- beyond that = the question then arises as to whether IF the boundary feature has provably been put in place by one particular house (ie it definitely IS theirs in other words) that boundary feature has been put in the correct place in their garden.

- if it hasn't been put in the correct place then there are two ways to look at it beyond that. Those two ways are whether "estoppel" applies or "adverse possession".

So you now have the headache of:

1. Was the boundary feature placed in the correct place initially?

2. If it wasn't - then does "adverse possession" (ie theft of someone else's land in effect) apply on the one hand OR estoppel (which, as I understand it, means "home-owner acted in good faith on basis of obvious facts) apply on the other hand.

From what you say - my personal viewpoint is that its likely that neighbour to the left is "pushing it" and trying to claim ownership of something they don't actually own.

End result = would previous owner of your house be prepared to certify officially that they were the ones that put that fence up?

LittleMax

Regardless of the property dispute - I think you need to have a word with your neighbours about it. If it is agreed you are responsible, you can then go ahead and do the work (it would be nice to give some consideration as to whether they wanted to retain the trellis on top, though obviously if it is your fence you wouldn't have to). If they think it is their fence you could ask about whether they would like to go halves in sorting it out. As you were willing to pay anyway you get it done for half the price, and it builds some bridges with them at the same time.

Davesnave

AndyBSG wrote: »

Cheers for any help as I appear to be up against a bit of a brick wall

I thought it was a fence?

Seriously, if you really think it's unwise to speak to your neighbours about this because of an unresolved dispute, then you either leave the fencing until that is resolved, or simply build another fence behind it on your own land.

Yes, I realise you might seem to "lose" up to 15cm of garden if you take the latter option, but at least you'll know who owns the fence and the real boundary will still be where it always was.

Sometimes, life is too short to worry about imponderables.

carlislelass

We are local authority housing, next door is private. Although they took out the original fence we are responsible for replacing panels. Told if you face your property then the left side belongs to us.

moneyistooshorttomention

This particular thing has come up many times on this forum - ie as to whether its possible to categorically say either "left hand fence is definitely mine - as all the left-hand fences along the road belong to the house to the right of them" or vice-versa.

Conclusion is reached every time without fail that there just isn't a "hard and fast" rule on that. Life would be so much simpler if there were.

The other point that comes up time and again is the boundary feature is one thing and the actual boundary (ie that invisible line dividing one property from another) is another thing entirely and the two may or may not match. They usually seem to - but that is not invariably the case.

The one thing that can, hopefully, be established for sure and certain is which of the two houses concerned put the boundary feature in place. If that can be established = its absolutely clear who owns the boundary feature. Then one has to think of whether that feature was put in the exact correct place on the one hand OR it doesn't matter because adverse possession or estoppel have established that feature and boundary are to be treated as one and the same on the other hand.

My personal take is that it looks as if the neighbour has put trellis up on top of OP's fence. If they have, then OP is at liberty to carefully remove it and give it back to them. In OP's position I would take it that the vendor having said "fence to the left" belongs to the property equals exactly that, ie fence to the left belongs to the property and totally disregard whatever is at the front of the house (be it road/path/garden/whatever). "Fence to the left looking at the property" = "fence to the left looking at the property" regardless. The vendor probably said that because they are the one who put that fence there (ie its their boundary feature/their fence).

Land_Registry

T Marks on title deeds - these can help to understand what the set up was when the properties were first built but if they have then changed hands since then they are unlikely to be enforceable. Often just an indicator as a result

End of terraces can be responsible for both sides but if you think about that logically does that mean both ends of the same terrace are responsible for both sides? If they are then one of their neighbours is the lucky one. As such this is often linked to the T mark point as made above

The 'sellers information' pack is another indicator to draw on and I suspect reference to the road was a generic part of the pack. Again helps to understand what the seller understood at time of sale but your neighbour's information pack could well have said the opposite - they are unlikely to trump one another so again a useful indicator but nothing more

There is often a distinction made between who owns a fence, b=namely paid for the materials and erection, and who is responsible for it. If the neighbour has added a trellis then I would assume he owns the trellis.

Who do I ultimately contact to confirm 100% which fence is mine? - nobody can give you that confirmation I'm afraid.

If built in the 70s the registered title may refer to the original plot Transfer by the developer, if there was one but you mention the deeds are silent re T marks.

So as far as the fences are concerned it is all about pooling information and sharing understanding with your neighbours and then agreeing a way forward - sounds simple and often it is but unfortunately where neighbours cannot agree the issues find there way onto such forums and/or into the realms of legal advice. Legal action is always an option but the cost, stress and time involved invariably mean it is to be avoided at all costs if you can.

The dispute over the extension muddies things on one side of course so legal advice may already be available especially if you are also contesting a piece of land - if as small as mentioned then this is again likely to come down to finding a way forward as neighbours I'm afraid.

And finally, I often use the tennis match analogy where each neighbour has the chance to 'hit the ball back' - he has added a trellis to the fence as his opening serve, you return by replacing fence and handing back the trellis. Will he return the shot by removing your fence or simply let you have a winner? Much longer than a tennis match sometimes but if you can discuss and agree an outcome it can often be the better option for all sides but I do appreciate that if you have come this far that is not always an option.

nomoneytoday

IMHO the person responsible for a fence is the person who cares about the condition of them.
There are no rules to say they must be kept in good order, although possibly covenants

AndyBSG

Thanks for the feedback guys.

If I was speaking to the neighbours it would all be fairly straightforward but given our legal action against them regarding their extension that doesn't have planning permission and illegal removal of all our lead flashing and fascia's that's not an option.

I'll just go ahead and replace the fence panels and if there is any comeback i'll simply show them the sellers information pack that states the left most fence is ours.