Closing PAYE scheme + help with HMRC Basic Tools

cottager

Looking for some help from anyone with experience of closing an employer's PAYE scheme and hopefully in a similar situation to mine, where I've had to turn to HMRC's free software to achieve this.

I'm dealing with my husband's sole tradership which had only 2 employees, me being one of them part-time, and the other full-time at the workplace.

I've always only ever used Sage Instant Payroll.

He retired and ceased trading a few weeks ago, and the full-time employee's last pay and leaver details etc were dealt with in Sage and via RTI/FPS at that time, leaving me as the only employee while dealing with post-closure stuff. I "terminated" myself in Sage on Monday, and again the FPS had the final pay and notified HMRC I was a leaver.

So no current employees, and there never will be now, so I want to tell HMRC he's no longer an employer and close the scheme.

Instant Payroll cannot do this.
Being a light version of the full Sage 50 Payroll (which can), it's missing this particular feature.

Sage tell me HMRC's free Basic PAYE Tools (BPT) will fill the gap, so it's installed now -- nothing entered yet -- but unfamiliar, so been looking at guidance for how to go about what I want to do. After many hours and finding only quite brief and fragmented info on closing schemes at gov.uk (so Googling for more elsewhere), there are still some points I'm either unsure about or where some reassurance would be good, to make sure I've understood properly.

I don't want to fall foul of any overlooked requirements or end up getting demands for estimated payments which are no longer due, and thus penalties. (Haven't contacted the Employer Helpline, as from almost everything seen online from others with specific BPT questions, it seems to be a frustrating and often fruitless exercise trying to get answers about it from there.)

To save this post getting even longer than it will already be (apologies), one thing for now to get me started...

I first have to enter Employer details. No problem, bar a section for NIC Employment Allowance as follows:

If you are eligible and want to claim the NICs Employment Allowance as a reduction of your annual employer Class 1 NICs bill, please select 'Yes' below.
Claim the NICs Employment Allowance for 2014-15? Yes/No
Claim the NICs Employment Allowance for 2015-16? Yes/No

The answer would be Yes in both cases EXCEPT it's already been claimed via Sage, some months ago.

I don't want to "double up" by saying Yes again (it would apparently create an EPS submission, but they've already had one about it), but on the other hand don't want to answer No if it means our existing claim could be mucked up somehow (our account's in credit still, as the 14/15 allowance wasn't claimed till the end of the tax year so it was carried over to 15/16 - there'll be a refund at some point I assume, once they've caught up with the closure).

In the First Time Users guide for BPT (p17) is this:
If you are not sure whether you are eligible, you can leave this question un-answered and enter 'Yes' or 'No' at a later stage.

Is this the best way to go, do you think? Just leave it blank, and trust the existing claim will still stand? If the scheme's closed there obviously won't be a 'later stage'.

With this I can make a start in BTP and move on to the next step... and next query
Hopefully only a case of "I think I've got it" but wanting to be sure: I have to reach the point where a submission's made saying it's the final one for the tax year, with the usual end-of-year questions and declaration, then apparently BPT's "PAYE scheme ceased" option will become available.

Many thanks.

Pennywise

Why not just phone up HMRC and tell them to close down the PAYE scheme. If you've submitted "final" rti returns for each employee, then they should be able to see that on their system and should be able to close it down manually from their end.

Eliza_2

Either ring as suggested or just write to them (keep a copy). I used BPT and it was fine once used to it but completely pointless to set it all up, learn it, then to close it down.

I wanted to be doubly sure when I closed our account down, having once made a mistake with BPT (and paid the price) so I wrote, told them what was happening and that was the end of that. There are real people at HMRC despite appearances and they will be able to help. You don't have to totally rely on doing things online.

Don't make life harder for yourself - and I hope your husband is enjoying his retirement!!!

cottager

Thank you, Pennywise. You'd think so, but it looks as if it must be done electronically through RTI - or that's my reading of it at least, not just from this gov.uk page
Stop being an employer
and other HMRC stuff pored over, but also reading elsewhere

As Sage IP doesn't include the option mentioned on that page, of entering 'Final submission because scheme ceased', it just seemed it'd have to be done separately with BPT where the 'cease' option is apparently available. I believe it doesn't need to include any payroll info already sent from Sage, but there still has to be a last FPS saying basically 'there won't be any more'.

I also think to avoid having to transmit any future EPSs to report nil to pay for the next tax month (9) and beyond, I probably have to get the 'cease' notification in before 19th of this month (but don't want to leave it that long, as there's also a final VAT return/payment due by 28th, or effectively 24th as that's a b/holiday, and it's rushing up much quicker than I'd like!).

cottager

Thanks Eliza. Well, maybe as you and Pennywise have both now said, a call's worth a try then, to see what they say... though my heart sinks at the prospect of hanging on for ages only to be cut off or passed from pillar to post. I'd certainly far rather write a letter, send recorded and be done with it, than mess around with BPT, but it just looked as if electronic is what's required now.

There's another guidance document specifically addressing my (and other) situations:

This is the Basic PAYE Tools guide for making and sending an Employer Payment Summary (EPS) and can be used by those employers whose commercial payroll software does not include this facility. Even the very largest employers will be able to use the Basic PAYE Tools to submit an EPS should they need to do so.

and

This guide assumes you are using commercial payroll software to run your payroll and report information in real time. The EPS can be used when you want to [...] indicate that this is your 'Final submission for the tax year' and answer the end of year declarations and questions.

Sage IP can and does handle EPSs, but not this particular one I need to now do, and in fact, although the document's about EPS, it says in the relevant section that if the end-of-year declarations etc are done in the middle of the tax year - as I'd be doing - an FPS will be created/submitted, not an EPS.
Also that:
This will not interfere with any FPS that you have sent to report your payroll information.
(i.e. what's already gone from Sage, presumably).

There's also a note (referring to the separate First Time User guide) that I only need to follow certain steps there:
... as you do not need to set up any employees for the submission of an EPS.

I assume, even though it seems a mid-year submission would be an FPS rather than an EPS, the same applies (or you'd think they'd say otherwise), in which case it doesn't appear I'd have to go through quite the whole rigmarole of setting everything up just to do this, only the Employer details. But we'll see, if and when I get that far

However, you and Pennywise have both now encouraged me enough to do the dreaded deed and give them a call -- will post back with the outcome, if I ever get through! Yes of course they're real people, and the ones I've spoken to on the relatively few occasions I've needed to have been really pleasant, despite the pressure they must be under. It's the system in general that gets me down, not the individuals.

Also appreciate the good wishes for OH's retirement!

Eliza_2

Apparently 8 am is a good time to ring. I've always found (once I can get through!!!!) that they are very helpful. But a letter should also hit the mark. I had to ring a couple of weeks ago and the woman was great and sorted things out immediately on the system.

Having said that, I'm still awaiting a response to a letter I wrote to the employers help service re changes of details for our parish council. Hey ho, it's HMRC, we have come to expect no better!!

Good luck!

cottager

Well, Both: good advice!
Helpline sorted me out, and all quite painlessly

And Eliza (last post) it seems around 12:30 was also a good time to ring, or it was yesterday at least: only had to hold for about 10 mins. Really helpful guy who also knew his way around Basic Tools, able to talk me through what was needed in my situation. In a further call mid-afternoon even better, and I was only holding for about 5 mins.

According to what I was told:

• Should not send a scheme closure/cessation request by letter.
• Cannot be accepted and done manually over the phone.
• Must be dealt with electronically via RTI submission.

Also clarification of some points in the HMRC guidance, or answering queries where it didn't cover what I wanted to know.

I've now done everything necessary in BPT up to and including the final submission for the tax year. Not quite yet the very last thing of all, to close down the scheme, but this is for a reason I only thought of later which should only delay it for a few days.

I'm going to add one or two more posts later with more detail for anyone in a similar situation.
Likely to be quite lengthy, but there will be no more questions or anything to answer, so current readers can effectively ignore it!

I just thought it could be useful for someone else searching in the future who might come across the thread, if they have similar queries to mine and can't quite find what they need.

Pennywise and Eliza: thanks again for the replies and encouragement to ring the Helpline -- much appreciated.

I knew before posting it was what I should do, but had been influenced by the many negative comments seen online where help with BPT was concerned -- unfairly as it turns out in this instance, and from my experience yesterday.

Sure, there were certain things that left something to be desired where the online help and guidance are concerned (more on that to come), but I'm always happy to give credit when it's due, and the Helpline people I spoke to deserve a "Well done".