PCN from VCS- slight complication advice appreciated

Saphira27

Hello,
Last night I got a PCN from VCS and I am posting this for advice about what I should do in this situation.
I have read the newbies post and have done quite a bit of reading on these forums so I understand the process but there is a slight complication to it all- I actually live directly next to where I got the PCN, and as such, while I have no interest what so ever in paying this stupid charge, I am concerned that later in the process this will lead to the company harassing me and them being able to find out that I was the driver of the car as... well, my car is literally parked round the corner and my student flat is above the land.

I live in a flat above a patch of empty, scruffy land which is actually a short driveway leading into a small business park. This drive is very wide and has space on either side to park without blocking any access to the business park entry way, and when I moved into my flat this year I tried for about two weeks to get a permit for the land, and dealing with VCS was awful- they were the most unhelpful bunch of plebs who couldn't even get in contact with the land's owner to inquire on my behalf about getting a permit- this is one of my arguments if I should chose to appeal.

I have a council permit for the main road just off from this land which is where I always park my car, but last night there was a football match on and all the spaces in the bays were taken. I parked my car in a corner on this land for around 2.5 hours while the match was on and while all the permit spaces on the road was still taken (I could have only parked on double yellows), and I came down at 10pm last night to move my car only to find I had got a ticket at 8pm.

The reason for my ticket was 'parked without displaying a valid ticket or permit', which is hilarious to me since I had tried for weeks to get a permit in the first place! As such I refuse to pay any money to this thieving company, but I need advice on what my best plan of action is.

Am I better to outright ignore this charge or should I make an appeal?
My main arguments for the appeal is that I tried to get a permit for this land in summer and due to their own incompetence I couldn't and also that the £100 charge (£60 for the discount) is extortionate and doesn't reflect any losses caused to the landowner, as you can't buy a parking ticket for the land OR a permit apparently and at the time the business park was closed and I wasn't blocking any access to anything.
Of course the owner of the car, who is not me, would make the appeal and not say who was driving at the time :rotfl:

Sorry for the long post I just wanted to make sure I'd given you all the details to best give me advice! Cheers!

Guys_Dad

The plain fact is you parked on someone else's land without satisfying the conditions that the Landowner's PPC had set. End of - the reasons why are irrelevant.

So, you need to use the various points in the NEWBIES thread to win. Start with signage and no lawful contract with landowner.

It is often hard for newbies to understand that, deep down, their predicament is just the same as most others and the way to win is the same.

Post up some of the signage and we can help. Also read the relevant bit from POFA 2012 to see if they comply and also that you get the NtK within the correct time frame.

Coupon-mad

Same advice as here, relevant to most IPC member firms:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5366701

and here:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5366904

There is no appeal worth trying so read posts #3 and #4 of the Newbies thread and look forward to the silly debt collector letter chain in 2016!

Saphira27

Thanks for the quick response guys!
Here is the signage: (had to put a spaces in it as a new user not allowed to post links) ]htt ps:/ / imgur. com/FEu7u6V

Okay so I should ignore them and pay attention to when they send the NTK .

Thank you for you help, I know I probably sound rather silly but I'm completely inexperienced with anything of this nature so I really appreciate the help!

Fruitcake

Saphira27 wrote: »

Thanks for the quick response guys!
Here is the signage: (had to put a spaces in it as a new user not allowed to post links) ]htt ps:/ / imgur. com/FEu7u6V

Okay so I should ignore them and pay attention to when they send the NTK .

Thank you for you help, I know I probably sound rather silly but I'm completely inexperienced with anything of this nature so I really appreciate the help!

https://imgur.com/FEu7u6V

Saphira27

Just a thought- would it be worth me trying to find out who owns the land? I imagine that it may be one of the businesses inside the park and I could explain the situation to them and see if they can cancel the charge- I've seen a good few posts on these forums getting their tickets cancelled by (where they parked in a shop's car pack) contacting the manager and explaining the situation

Coupon-mad

Yes, always worth a try. This will be you in 2016:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5367140

HTH

Umkomaas

That sign is, as written, an instruction to 'Valid Permit Holders', it doesn't apply to anyone else. It won't get you anywhere in the appeals process, but should it get to court, as a supposed contractual document, I'd wager a half-awake Judge would make mincemeat of the sign.

Keep hold of that photograph, and get a few additional ones showing more of the actual car park with the sign still visible - as it could be argued that the one close up you've got wasn't necessarily the sign on this particular site.

Saphira27

Okay so do you recommend I forgo the appeals and prepare in case they want to take me to court after the debt collection letters? Court seems like a really scary thing to me right now- I'm just a young university student and I find that word terrifying! I worry if I'd win in case they found a loophole and I'd have to pay up money I don't have.
I'd honestly hoped if I'd ignore it that they would leave me alone as I'd only owe a singular ticket and them taking me to court would cost them more than they'd make back, though in my defence I am one of the three drivers on this car and not the owner, and I will never give away which driver I am.

It's dark now but I'll try to get more pictures of the other signage, it seems with the Beavis vs ParkingEye case that the law isn't always on our side though but I'd hope if a judge saw this in court they'd see through it!
Again thanks for the advice it's really appreciated

Umkomaas

There's little prospect of them 'leaving you alone', you're in their spider's web.

I'd go through the process of appealing to the PPC (just before their 21 day deadline expires - if they take email/website appeals - slightly earlier if only by snail mail). Use only the appeal in the newbies sticky, don't try to embellish it with 'your story'. Take out the bit re POPLA.

When you get a rejection you weigh up if you want to progress this to an IAS level appeal - after reading the pros and cons in post #3 of the sticky.

There have been a few appeals upheld by the IAS on signage, so if you decide to give the IAS appeal a go, you would make signage a significant point, but you'd need to get your head around the suggestion I made in my earlier post. Even if you fail in the IAS appeal you might create enough doubt in their minds over the signage point that they would avoid court.

VCS seem shy of attempting court cases where they have any doubt about their grounds for pursuing.

Saphira27

I've been reading a lot of the stuff you've put in other threads and rereading the sticky which has given me much food for thought, I may attempt the appeal towards the end of the deadline though if they decline it (and I imagine they most likely will) I don't think I would appeal to the IAS due to what you and many other people have said on other threads, and I really wouldn't want to throw any help their way. Would I mention the signage in both my first appeal and also in the IAS if I choose to appeal again?

I've been re-reading the signage again and I see what you mean now- it seems like it is only addressed to permit holders and only warning permit holders to display their permit and not anyone else. Also there are only 4 signs at certain points in the area, and there are patches of land which seem to not be 'covered' by the signs (I'll upload a picture in the morning showing what I mean) so I feel more confident about this whole thing now.

I've been searching like mad to find VCS related court cases and I've found very few, and the one's I've found seem to be for payment owed over multiple days.