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Should I take them to court?
Hello all,
I will try to keep this short. This is a problem that has been bothering me for a long time and it's damaging to my health.
I bought a 2nd hand car from a Toyota dealer in the UK about 150 miles from my home. This was at the end of March. A week or so after driving it I realised that there was an increasing smell in it. After a bit of research it turns out to be mould from the air con system. Not only is the smell bad but it harms my health because I am asthmatic. It hurts my lungs, makes breathing harder and my heart beat stronger. TBH it's ruining my days because everything becomes uncomfortable to do, even the things that I enjoy.
I rang the dealer up and they asked me to take the car to them. After much hassle they agreed to pay for a local Toyota dealer to remedy the problem. I still haven't sent them the invoice. The dealer used a foam procedure. A week after that the smell came back and it was bad. I took the car to that dealer two more times and they did the same thing more intensively. Thereafter they said that there is nothing else they can do except change the evap core which costs over £1000 and isn't covered by the guarantee. They also denied that the smell was from mould - the service manager said it was a normal air con smell. Now my original dealer said that since the local dealer can find no problem, they can't do anything themselves.
So I went to an independent garage for a 2nd opinion and and they said air con systems don't just smell. They said it was a mouldy smell and wrote me a letter affirming it. They said only an evap core change will remedy the problem. I bought a self test mould test kit and it tested positive for both Aspergillus/Penicillium & Stachybotrys (which is toxic) in the air vents. I also got a mould specialist to test the air in the car and his results showed that there was excessive mould and bacteria in the air and especially when the air con is on. He said those levels can cause the symptoms that I have been having.
In all this time to remedy the problem I have bought an anti bacteria spray, a gas bomb, a new filter and spent some more money on other things.
The original dealer has offered to do nothing that hasn't already been done a few times (e.g. filters, foams, gas bomb etc). So I refused to take the car to them if they were just going to do the same things that did not work. Also they have been really unresponsive from the beginning. They don't respond to my calls, emails etc. I have to keep trying to get through tot them. It's really frustrating. Toyota head office also don't respond and say that it's the dealer's problem and not theirs.
I have been in touch with the Citizens Advice consumer helpline who have advised me on the steps to take over the recent months. They told me to write a final warning letter informing the dealer that if they don't respond appropriately, I will take them to court. And I have before that written many many emails to them and Toyota head office. Some senior service guy who I had never contacted before at the dealer got back to me and offered me £30 for fuel to drive the car to them. But since he only wanted to inspect the car and did not offer a new evap core I declined. I said they should get someone to pick up my car and to give me a courtesy car - this was actually advised by a service manager at another Toyota dealer.
A couple of days ago just before I was about to apply for the court case, someone from Trading Standards contacted me. She said that if I go to court I will lose because I haven't given the dealer a chance to remedy the problem. She said the judge will think I am unreasonable for not taking the car to them. She had been in touch with them and she seemed rather annoyed with me. She got more annoyed when I said that I was thinking about taking them to court for personal injury too (for my asthma). She said the car was not new and thus I cannot take then to court for that reason.
She has advised me to drive the car to them and let them have a go at remedying it. She said after that we can discuss what to do next if they can't fix the problem. I was suspicious so I called the helpline again and they were also surprised that she contacted me. They too said that maybe she has a point and that I should give the dealer one chance to remedy the problem then think about going to court.
I spoke to the lady from Trading Standards again and she told me not to call the helpline again because they are 1st line support and she is 2nd line support thus is more senior than them. She said that she will listen to the recorded call that I had with them . This time she was less angry with me. She suggested that if the dealer can't fix the problem them maybe we can look into a replacement car or a partial refund (because I haven been using it).
Now the dealer has asked me to wait two weeks before I can take the car to them because the guy I spoke to wants to supervise the inspection but he is going on holiday. I am going to call the Trading Standards lady again on Monday and speak to her about this.
However this is all very upsetting because my health is still affected by driving this car.
What should I do? Should I take her advice?
Also if I do take her advice on the car, should I in the meantime go to the small claims court for personal injury? I really want to do this because I am so upset at how this is affected my well being. Even if I don't win the case, I will at least feel good for trying.
Thanks everyone.
I will try to keep this short. This is a problem that has been bothering me for a long time and it's damaging to my health.
I bought a 2nd hand car from a Toyota dealer in the UK about 150 miles from my home. This was at the end of March. A week or so after driving it I realised that there was an increasing smell in it. After a bit of research it turns out to be mould from the air con system. Not only is the smell bad but it harms my health because I am asthmatic. It hurts my lungs, makes breathing harder and my heart beat stronger. TBH it's ruining my days because everything becomes uncomfortable to do, even the things that I enjoy.
I rang the dealer up and they asked me to take the car to them. After much hassle they agreed to pay for a local Toyota dealer to remedy the problem. I still haven't sent them the invoice. The dealer used a foam procedure. A week after that the smell came back and it was bad. I took the car to that dealer two more times and they did the same thing more intensively. Thereafter they said that there is nothing else they can do except change the evap core which costs over £1000 and isn't covered by the guarantee. They also denied that the smell was from mould - the service manager said it was a normal air con smell. Now my original dealer said that since the local dealer can find no problem, they can't do anything themselves.
So I went to an independent garage for a 2nd opinion and and they said air con systems don't just smell. They said it was a mouldy smell and wrote me a letter affirming it. They said only an evap core change will remedy the problem. I bought a self test mould test kit and it tested positive for both Aspergillus/Penicillium & Stachybotrys (which is toxic) in the air vents. I also got a mould specialist to test the air in the car and his results showed that there was excessive mould and bacteria in the air and especially when the air con is on. He said those levels can cause the symptoms that I have been having.
In all this time to remedy the problem I have bought an anti bacteria spray, a gas bomb, a new filter and spent some more money on other things.
The original dealer has offered to do nothing that hasn't already been done a few times (e.g. filters, foams, gas bomb etc). So I refused to take the car to them if they were just going to do the same things that did not work. Also they have been really unresponsive from the beginning. They don't respond to my calls, emails etc. I have to keep trying to get through tot them. It's really frustrating. Toyota head office also don't respond and say that it's the dealer's problem and not theirs.
I have been in touch with the Citizens Advice consumer helpline who have advised me on the steps to take over the recent months. They told me to write a final warning letter informing the dealer that if they don't respond appropriately, I will take them to court. And I have before that written many many emails to them and Toyota head office. Some senior service guy who I had never contacted before at the dealer got back to me and offered me £30 for fuel to drive the car to them. But since he only wanted to inspect the car and did not offer a new evap core I declined. I said they should get someone to pick up my car and to give me a courtesy car - this was actually advised by a service manager at another Toyota dealer.
A couple of days ago just before I was about to apply for the court case, someone from Trading Standards contacted me. She said that if I go to court I will lose because I haven't given the dealer a chance to remedy the problem. She said the judge will think I am unreasonable for not taking the car to them. She had been in touch with them and she seemed rather annoyed with me. She got more annoyed when I said that I was thinking about taking them to court for personal injury too (for my asthma). She said the car was not new and thus I cannot take then to court for that reason.
She has advised me to drive the car to them and let them have a go at remedying it. She said after that we can discuss what to do next if they can't fix the problem. I was suspicious so I called the helpline again and they were also surprised that she contacted me. They too said that maybe she has a point and that I should give the dealer one chance to remedy the problem then think about going to court.
I spoke to the lady from Trading Standards again and she told me not to call the helpline again because they are 1st line support and she is 2nd line support thus is more senior than them. She said that she will listen to the recorded call that I had with them . This time she was less angry with me. She suggested that if the dealer can't fix the problem them maybe we can look into a replacement car or a partial refund (because I haven been using it).
Now the dealer has asked me to wait two weeks before I can take the car to them because the guy I spoke to wants to supervise the inspection but he is going on holiday. I am going to call the Trading Standards lady again on Monday and speak to her about this.
However this is all very upsetting because my health is still affected by driving this car.
What should I do? Should I take her advice?
Also if I do take her advice on the car, should I in the meantime go to the small claims court for personal injury? I really want to do this because I am so upset at how this is affected my well being. Even if I don't win the case, I will at least feel good for trying.
Thanks everyone.
0
Comments
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You bought this car back in March - 9 months ago!
Your first mistake was therefore in April:
A week or so after driving it I realised that there was an increasing smell in it.
I rang the dealer up and they asked me to take the car to them.
The car should have gone back to the selling dealer at that point.
By not doing that you have prolonged the problem.
Get it there asap along with your specialist investigation reports and ask for a courtesy car in the meantime.
All your proposed legal action needs to wait for the selling dealer to have an opportunity to fix it.0 -
I didn't take it to them because they only wanted to do what was already possible to do locally. I did however over the months ask for a courtesy car etc, if they wanted to inspect the car. They would not respond to me.
Okay so can I sue them for personal injury? Even if I have not taken the car to them, can I sue them or the local dealer that tried three times to fix the problem and then denied that there was a problem? I only realised that there was a genuine bacteria problem after that. I could sue the local dealer for telling me that there was no mould problem and thus I continued to drive the car.
Also I can't go there ASAP because the guy is taking a holiday!0 -
Sorry - you want them to commit to stripping the entire dashboard out of the car and replacing the evaporator, without actually inspecting the car to determine if that REALLY is the problem?But since he only wanted to inspect the car and did not offer a new evap core I declined.
The evaporator is just a metal matrix - like the car radiator. Cold, compressed, liquified refrigerant passes through inside of it, the air coming in from outside to the interior passes over the outside. This dries and chills the air as the refrigerant is warmed from that air, and evaporates - then it passes back to the compressor and through the condenser, mounted by the radiator. That's how aircon works.
If there really is mould somewhere in the airflow, changing the evaporator won't do much more than a damn good clean and sterilise without dismantling will. That passes sterilising agent over the evaporator in exactly the same way as the air flows - because it goes down the same passageways as the air does. Changing the evaporator won't clean the heater matrix or any of the flaps or passageways.0 -
You may have missed my point - the car should have been returned to the selling dealer - not any other equivalent dealer - your dispute is with the selling dealer - not some other nearer dealer.
Anything and everything that has been tried by other dealers is irrelevant as you have not followed the correct procedure for dealing with a faulty vehicle.
The selling dealer MUST have a chance to attempt a fix - even if it's only to repeat what has already been tried.
Take it there asap and demand a courtesy car - I would leave it with them even if that is not forthcoming.
Tell them that you will bill them for a hire car and see if that produces a courtesy car.
Some guy being on holiday is not your problem - it's their problem.
Stay calm - threaten nothing legal (that won't help at this point) be firm and insistent - but not confrontational - remember what has been done so far has not been done by them - that was your mistake in my opinion.
Edit - Has the pollen filter/cabin filter been replaced? Have the plenum chambers been checked for leaves, dead insects and/or other debris?0 -
Sorry - you want them to commit to stripping the entire dashboard out of the car and replacing the evaporator, without actually inspecting the car to determine if that REALLY is the problem?
The evaporator is just a metal matrix - like the car radiator. Cold, compressed, liquified refrigerant passes through inside of it, the air coming in from outside to the interior passes over the outside. This dries and chills the air as the refrigerant is warmed from that air, and evaporates - then it passes back to the compressor and through the condenser, mounted by the radiator. That's how aircon works.
If there really is mould somewhere in the airflow, changing the evaporator won't do much more than a damn good clean and sterilise without dismantling will. That passes sterilising agent over the evaporator in exactly the same way as the air flows - because it goes down the same passageways as the air does. Changing the evaporator won't clean the heater matrix or any of the flaps or passageways.
You make a fair point and TBH I didn't elaborate enough for the sake of brevity. All the fixes that they offered had already been done. That was my main issue. I don't necessarily want them to change the evap core but they should have suggested that they would look into the matter more than just doing what is already done. It's only now after months of contacting them and giving them a final warning that they decided to investigate the matter in more depth. BTW the local Toyota dealer told me that a evap core change was necessary. I suggested a thorough clean to them and they rejected the idea as futile.0 -
Why do people travel to the other end of the country to buy a car, always seems odd to me.
The age of the car might also be relevant in terms of rights and expectation.0 -
You may have missed my point - the car should have been returned to the selling dealer - not any other equivalent dealer - your dispute is with the selling dealer - not some other nearer dealer.
Anything and everything that has been tried by other dealers is irrelevant as you have not followed the correct procedure for dealing with a faulty vehicle.
The selling dealer MUST have a chance to attempt a fix - even if it's only to repeat what has already been tried.
Take it there asap and demand a courtesy car - I would leave it with them even if that is not forthcoming.
Tell them that you will bill them for a hire car and see if that produces a courtesy car.
Some guy being on holiday is not your problem - it's their problem.
Stay calm - threaten nothing legal (that won't help at this point) be firm and insistent - but not confrontational - remember what has been done so far has not been done by them - that was your mistake in my opinion.
Edit - Has the pollen filter/cabin filter been replaced? Have the plenum chambers been checked for leaves, dead insects and/or other debris?
Yeah the cabin filter was changed. The smell comes about even though I never use the AC. I actually bought an endoscope to see what the problem was. I cant find anything in the system. The local dealer has checked for leaks etc.
You see I am not a car or legal expert. I went by the advice that the Consumer Advice helpline gave me. They were the ones who said I don't need to take it to them because the local dealer has already carried out the same procedures many times. I didn't at all know that the law required for the original dealer to have a go.
Also since they are all Toyota, I got the slight impression that maybe one dealer tying to fix it is quite equivalent to another one doing it. The other big problem was that the original dealer just would not respond to me very often when I sought their advice on what to do. If I am in the wrong for not taking the car to them, they too are in the wrong for always ignoring me even though I was always patient and polite with them. Also the car had a smell when I bought it but I had no clue that it would be bacteria in the AC system. As car dealers that should not have sold me a car like that. I never refused to take the car there, I just wanted more than what they were offering. They could have at least said that they would inspect the car until they found the problem or they could have offered a courtesy car. I did ask for a courtesy car many times. TBH the Trading Standards person has asked them to now give me a courtesy car because she said they must be reasonable to my needs.
So anyhow I have to do what the law states.
I am still trying to find out if I can get compensation for the health problems.0 -
Why do people travel to the other end of the country to buy a car, always seems odd to me.
The age of the car might also be relevant in terms of rights and expectation.
Because it was cheaper. People expect the dealer to be held responsible for the faults in the car. I was told by a 3rd Toyota dealer that the seller should send someone over to pick up the car and give me a courtesy car while they fix it. People just think that this is how the law should be.0 -
You've taken advice from CAB who have told you if you take them to court now you will lose. So you come on here and ask if you should take them to court?
The simple answer is yes, if you want to lose.
As for personal injury, you had asthma before you bought the car. So what injury has the car caused? None, you still have asthma now you've bought the car and no additional injuries.
Best bet is Judge Rinder, you'll get expenses paid, a night in a hotel and appear on tv. Entertainment factor is the only thing you'll achieve until you follow correct procedure.0
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