New front door fitting nightmare - any advice?

itm2

greenface wrote: »

does your framework rattle still ? the first screws were probably adequate so long as they were long enough (and the walls are sound) ,which is why im asking if the frame still rattles . asking someone around a dozen times for something that should have been sorted on day one (maybe 2) as above there is a problem with product and really needs to be refitted with another without seeing it .

No the framework is now solid. My guess is that the hinges aren't handling the weight of the door (which is made heavier by the Yale keyfree lock).

Furts

itm2 wrote: »

Just so I understand the point you make in your last paragraph ("why have you allowed this situation to extend for three years and why have you managed 11 visits to rectify one door?") - are you suggesting that Fusion Doors may regard me as partially liable because this has dragged on for 3 years? Since I've been emailing complaints to them regularly about this, since 6 months after the door was first fitted, was there anything else I could reasonably have done?

A grey area, but Fusion Doors may feel you are a customer to be fobbed off with an excuse. They may also be playing for time hoping your frustration will drive you away. They may also feel you are a nuisance. None of this has legal validity but it can be human nature to think along these lines.

All this comes about because waiting three years and requesting, allowing, inspecting and accepting eleven visits is somewhat absurd. Fusion Doors are at fault but you must also accept some responsibility for this fiasco.

Fusion Doors could now argue that you have purchased a cheap, poor quality Chinese door which is life expired after three years and due for replacement with a new door. They could also argue that you have forced the door, or forced the hinges, or not maintained the door in accordance with the warranty - if there is one. You may disagree with these points, and I would tend to side with you. But the fact remains that you are in a weak position up against a company that may be dubious, or ruthless.

Your position is weakened by not taking decisive and firm action a few years ago. You have allowed both Fusion Doors and its sub contractors to foist their procedures on you time and again. If matters went to Court a Judge would ask why you have allowed this situation to continue.

itm2

Furts wrote: »

A grey area, but Fusion Doors may feel you are a customer to be fobbed off with an excuse. They may also be playing for time hoping your frustration will drive you away. They may also feel you are a nuisance. None of this has legal validity but it can be human nature to think along these lines.

All this comes about because waiting three years and requesting, allowing, inspecting and accepting eleven visits is somewhat absurd. Fusion Doors are at fault but you must also accept some responsibility for this fiasco.

Fusion Doors could now argue that you have purchased a cheap, poor quality Chinese door which is life expired after three years and due for replacement with a new door. They could also argue that you have forced the door, or forced the hinges, or not maintained the door in accordance with the warranty - if there is one. You may disagree with these points, and I would tend to side with you. But the fact remains that you are in a weak position up against a company that may be dubious, or ruthless.

Your position is weakened by not taking decisive and firm action a few years ago. You have allowed both Fusion Doors and its sub contractors to foist their procedures on you time and again. If matters went to Court a Judge would ask why you have allowed this situation to continue.

Hmmm...it's an interesting perspective but it's hardly the case that I "waited three years". This was first reported 6 months after the door was installed, and I have been complaining repeatedly since then. On two occasions I specifically demanded a visit from a senior person at Martindale to inspect the problem and recommend a solution. I do agree that Fusion Doors almost certainly regard me as a royal pain in the neck, however.

I honestly don't know what else I could have done in terms of "decisive action". If this had been an appliance I would obviously have returned it long ago, but that's not exactly feasible with a front door. Small Claims Court may have been an option, but I have always regarded it is a last resort, following the exhaustion of all other avenues with the supplier.

My feeling is that there is nothing wrong with the door per se (it's still in pristine condition), but that it was not installed in an appropriate or professional way - the fixings are not supporting it properly. That's why I'm not sure whether it's the Sale of Goods Act or the Supply of Goods and Services Act that I need to be leaning on at this point.

Furts

itm2 wrote: »

My feeling is that there is nothing wrong with the door per se (it's still in pristine condition), but that it was not installed in an appropriate or professional way - the fixings are not supporting it properly. That's why I'm not sure whether it's the Sale of Goods Act or the Supply of Goods and Services Act that I need to be leaning on at this point.

For definitive legal terminology regarding laws you can get this FOC with many home insurance policies, with Trade Union membership, with membership of any of the Co Ops, with some employers like local authorities...

I will stick with your door - you should not have been dealing with Martindale - they are just sub contractors and incompetent ones from the comments in your post.

The hinges may be unsuitable - I have yet to see a four hinge composite door, yet my small pvcu back door has four hinges. Also I have yet to see any composite door with the hinges set in the accepted good practice location. Add to this that you may have a poor quality door and if so the hinges are likely to be poor quality, as are the fixings with the hinge, and the profile to which they are mounted. It is even possible that there is no substance in the door to receive the fixings from the hinges.

Unless you can tell mse users who was the door manufacturer, who supplied the blank, whose profile forms the frame, what reinforcement is in the profile, what structural detail the frame is fixed to, what fixings of what lengthy and what centres are used on the frame then it is difficult to say whether or not you have a satisfactory door.

You may view my comments as abrupt, but please remember that you purchased the door so you should be aware of all this. You have a Duty Of Care to yourself to do so. If matters end up in Court and you cannot answer these items then Fusion Doors will run circles around you.

itm2

Furts wrote: »

The hinges may be unsuitable - I have yet to see a four hinge composite door, yet my small pvcu back door has four hinges. Also I have yet to see any composite door with the hinges set in the accepted good practice location. Add to this that you may have a poor quality door and if so the hinges are likely to be poor quality, as are the fixings with the hinge, and the profile to which they are mounted. It is even possible that there is no substance in the door to receive the fixings from the hinges.

Unless you can tell mse users who was the door manufacturer, who supplied the blank, whose profile forms the frame, what reinforcement is in the profile, what structural detail the frame is fixed to, what fixings of what lengthy and what centres are used on the frame then it is difficult to say whether or not you have a satisfactory door.

You may view my comments as abrupt, but please remember that you purchased the door so you should be aware of all this. You have a Duty Of Care to yourself to do so. If matters end up in Court and you cannot answer these items then Fusion Doors will run circles around you.

Interesting...maybe 4 hinges is a possible solution? (the current door has only 3). I'll run this past Fusion/Martindales to see if that would be possible with the type of door that I have.

BTW I never deal with Martindales directly (apart from speaking to the fitters when they visit). I complain to Fusion each time, and they then contact Martindales to arrange a visit.

If it does end up in a small claims court then my argument will be quite simple: Fusion supplied a door that won't close properly, it was reported to them after 6 months and after repeated visits they have never rectified it. It would be hard for them to argue that it was ever fit for purpose, I would have thought?

Furts

itm2 wrote: »

Interesting...maybe 4 hinges is a possible solution? (the current door has only 3). I'll run this past Fusion/Martindales to see if that would be possible with the type of door that I have.

BTW I never deal with Martindales directly (apart from speaking to the fitters when they visit). I complain to Fusion each time, and they then contact Martindales to arrange a visit.

If it does end up in a small claims court then my argument will be quite simple: Fusion supplied a door that won't close properly, it was reported to them after 6 months and after repeated visits they have never rectified it. It would be hard for them to argue that it was ever fit for purpose, I would have thought?

Getting a fourth hinge fitted as a simple retro fit is not possible. Had you wanted this the onus would have been on you to specify this before manufacture of the door.

You have not said who measured up for the door to be manufactured - you, Fusion Doors, or somebody else - perhaps Martindale?

Then I appreciate Martindale are the after sales folks but were they also the original fitters?

itm2

Furts wrote: »

Getting a fourth hinge fitted as a simple retro fit is not possible. Had you wanted this the onus would have been on you to specify this before manufacture of the door.

You have not said who measured up for the door to be manufactured - you, Fusion Doors, or somebody else - perhaps Martindale?

Then I appreciate Martindale are the after sales folks but were they also the original fitters?

Dammit that's a pain. It'll be much more of a struggle to get them to provide a completely new door.

I don't know who fitted the door originally (I was at work at the time), but Martindale are certainly handling all of the remedial insurance work. Whoever fitted it would have done all of the measuring up, etc. I just placed an order and paid the money.

itm2

Here's the immediate response from Fusion FYI:

I have just called the Martindales area manager who is out on the road at the moment. When he is back in the office he is going to look through the remedial history of this job and get back to me.

The area manager has actually been to your property himself and can recall the job, he will also speak to the fitters who came recently.

Ultimately I cannot understand why you are having constant issues, we have never had a recurring issue like this in all our years of trading. Before we consider replacing anything we will need to ask the area manager to carry out an up to date, thorough site report so we can try and ascertain where the issue lies.

Unfortunately four hinges will not be an option in this case as the doors are prepped for 3 hinges and this should be more than sufficient.

I appreciate your patience in this matter and we are doing our best to get a resolution for you. As soon as I have spoken to the area manager I will come back to you.

greenface

Furts wrote: »

For definitive legal terminology regarding laws you can get this FOC with many home insurance policies, with Trade Union membership, with membership of any of the Co Ops, with some employers like local authorities...

I will stick with your door - you should not have been dealing with Martindale - they are just sub contractors and incompetent ones from the comments in your post.

The hinges may be unsuitable - I have yet to see a four hinge composite door, yet my small pvcu back door has four hinges. Also I have yet to see any composite door with the hinges set in the accepted good practice location. Add to this that you may have a poor quality door and if so the hinges are likely to be poor quality, as are the fixings with the hinge, and the profile to which they are mounted. It is even possible that there is no substance in the door to receive the fixings from the hinges.

Unless you can tell mse users who was the door manufacturer, who supplied the blank, whose profile forms the frame, what reinforcement is in the profile, what structural detail the frame is fixed to, what fixings of what lengthy and what centres are used on the frame then it is difficult to say whether or not you have a satisfactory door.

You may view my comments as abrupt, but please remember that you purchased the door so you should be aware of all this. You have a Duty Of Care to yourself to do so. If matters end up in Court and you cannot answer these items then Fusion Doors will run circles around you.

Too late for an extra hinge and most composits are adequate with 3 hinges . I cannot remember the last time I saw 4 hinges on an upvc door either. (will see 2 tonight now)

Furts

greenface wrote: »

Too late for an extra hinge and most composits are adequate with 3 hinges . I cannot remember the last time I saw 4 hinges on an upvc door either. (will see 2 tonight now)

My back door is a 2XGG with laminated glass. A reasonable weight and good practice required 4 hinges. However, it was me doing the ordering. I am under no illusions that a standard order placed with the likes of Anglian would have produced only 3 hinges.

3 hinges can cope on doors in schools and fire doors in hospitals, to give two examples. However these are CE Marked, EN, stainless, ball raced, and in a different league to what is fitted on a typical composite door. No composite doors that I have seen have the hinges in the correct location, and the hinges they have are flimsy. That is why I say 4 hinges should be the default order requirement.