Second Degree, Integrated Masters and ELQs

hannahvictorius

Hello,

I have read a lot and I still feel very confused so I'm here seeking clarity, if possible.

I have a BA (Honours) in Slavonic Studies, which I started in 2008 and graduated in 2011.

For some time I have wanted to return to university to retrain as a physicist. I've looked into every other option, and it seems a university degree is the only way to go.

Scenario One

Ideally I'd like to take the MPhys integrated masters degree, with a foundation year as I don't have the right A Levels.

I have been told by my choice of university (Uni of Nottingham) that I would be offered a place on the foundation year Physical Sciences and Engineering routes, but this is where things get tricky.

The foundation year course is a five year integrated masters. I am aware that I am not a ELQ student if I apply for this, as according to HEFCE:

'a. Where they are undertaking an integrated masters programme (such as a four-year Master of Engineering (MEng), Master of Physics (MPhys) or Master of Chemistry (MChem)), they should be recorded at undergraduate level in HEIFES, because a degree is not a normal entry requirement for such study. However, with the exception of the Master of Pharmacy (MPharm) (see paragraph 25), they should not be treated as aiming for an ELQ, because the academic level of the final qualification of the integrated masters programme is at Level 7 of the Framework for Higher Education Qualifications in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This also means that (again with the exception of students who hold an MPharm) a student who holds an integrated masters qualification and who wishes to enrol on a taught postgraduate masters qualification (such as a Master of Arts (MA) or Master of Business Administration (MBA)) should be treated as aiming for an ELQ.'

However, the Student Loans Company isn't as clear, but probably means I get sweet FA:

'When assessing applications for student support from students who
wish to study a second higher education qualification, the
Department is of the opinion that assessors should take into account
a range of factors in assessing the level of the second degree, and
hence whether it is a qualification which is equivalent or lower to their
first qualification. These include: the whole qualification, the title and
final award, the entry requirements for the qualification and how the
final award allows progression to postgraduate qualifications. They
may also seek advice from the higher education institution or
awarding body. Furthermore, if the HE qualification which
someone already holds is an honours degree from a UK HEI,
then consideration does not need to be given to the academic
level of the course: it is automatically an ELQ.

Integrated Masters
142. For the purpose of providing student support, an integrated masters
is an undergraduate entry first degree the same as an Honours
degree and should therefore be treated in the same way when
assessing eligibility for student support. Therefore, students who
hold an Honours degree and subsequently undertake one of these
courses are not entitled to any further support.'

So I know it is unlikely I will get any support for the MPhys with Foundation Year. Is this also the case for the Maintenance Loan?

Would I be eligible for the extra year of funding from my previous degree loan?


Scenario Two

I start on the Foundation Year and then progress to Engineering part-time and access the tuition fee loan for this. However I am only able to study the foundation year full time; would it then be a Certificate of Higher Education that I could potentially secure a 24+ Advanced Learning Loan for?

Would I be eligible for any bursaries/grants etc, knowing I am not an ELQ student, but am not undertaking my first degree?

I guess what I'm struggling to define is whether an Integrated Masters is a different level of degree in the eyes of SLC/SFE and the University?

I will apply to SFE and see what happens, but 16/17 applications don't seem to be open yet.

I hope to go on to a PhD and a career in research, so it really is a career change. I am preparing for the worst, but want to make sure I haven't missed anything.

SuperCat007

hannahvictorius wrote: »

Hello,

I have read a lot and I still feel very confused so I'm here seeking clarity, if possible.

I have a BA (Honours) in Slavonic Studies, which I started in 2008 and graduated in 2011.

For some time I have wanted to return to university to retrain as a physicist. I've looked into every other option, and it seems a university degree is the only way to go.

Scenario One

Ideally I'd like to take the MPhys integrated masters degree, with a foundation year as I don't have the right A Levels.

I have been told by my choice of university (Uni of Nottingham) that I would be offered a place on the foundation year Physical Sciences and Engineering routes, but this is where things get tricky.

The foundation year course is a five year integrated masters. I am aware that I am not a ELQ student if I apply for this, as according to HEFCE:

'a. Where they are undertaking an integrated masters programme (such as a four-year Master of Engineering (MEng), Master of Physics (MPhys) or Master of Chemistry (MChem)), they should be recorded at undergraduate level in HEIFES, because a degree is not a normal entry requirement for such study. However, with the exception of the Master of Pharmacy (MPharm) (see paragraph 25), they should not be treated as aiming for an ELQ, because the academic level of the final qualification of the integrated masters programme is at Level 7 of the Framework for Higher Education Qualifications in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This also means that (again with the exception of students who hold an MPharm) a student who holds an integrated masters qualification and who wishes to enrol on a taught postgraduate masters qualification (such as a Master of Arts (MA) or Master of Business Administration (MBA)) should be treated as aiming for an ELQ.'

However, the Student Loans Company isn't as clear, but probably means I get sweet FA:

'When assessing applications for student support from students who
wish to study a second higher education qualification, the
Department is of the opinion that assessors should take into account
a range of factors in assessing the level of the second degree, and
hence whether it is a qualification which is equivalent or lower to their
first qualification. These include: the whole qualification, the title and
final award, the entry requirements for the qualification and how the
final award allows progression to postgraduate qualifications. They
may also seek advice from the higher education institution or
awarding body. Furthermore, if the HE qualification which
someone already holds is an honours degree from a UK HEI,
then consideration does not need to be given to the academic
level of the course: it is automatically an ELQ.

Integrated Masters
142. For the purpose of providing student support, an integrated masters
is an undergraduate entry first degree the same as an Honours
degree and should therefore be treated in the same way when
assessing eligibility for student support. Therefore, students who
hold an Honours degree and subsequently undertake one of these
courses are not entitled to any further support.'

So I know it is unlikely I will get any support for the MPhys with Foundation Year. Is this also the case for the Maintenance Loan?

Would I be eligible for the extra year of funding from my previous degree loan?


Scenario Two

I start on the Foundation Year and then progress to Engineering part-time and access the tuition fee loan for this. However I am only able to study the foundation year full time; would it then be a Certificate of Higher Education that I could potentially secure a 24+ Advanced Learning Loan for?

Would I be eligible for any bursaries/grants etc, knowing I am not an ELQ student, but am not undertaking my first degree?

I guess what I'm struggling to define is whether an Integrated Masters is a different level of degree in the eyes of SLC/SFE and the University?

I will apply to SFE and see what happens, but 16/17 applications don't seem to be open yet.

I hope to go on to a PhD and a career in research, so it really is a career change. I am preparing for the worst, but want to make sure I haven't missed anything.

You will have ELQ even though you don't have the masters yet, maybe there is a small chance you will get funding for year 4 (the masters year) because you don't have that level of study. But that would be something for SFE to assess and you'll more than likely need to go through the appeals process to find out.

Bursaries and grants are available from the university so you will need to check their T's and C's, there are no more government grants from SFE from 2016.

Unless otherwise stated the Foundation year won't give you a Cert HE, Cert HE is 120 credits from undergraduate year 1, not foundation year 1.

24+ learning loan is for those studying level 3, further education, you need to check what level the foundation year is. If it does give you the Cert HE then you definitely won't be eligible for the 24+ loan.

I'm pretty sure ELQ will also apply to part time study, as you've already graduated. Though you'll need to pour through the T's and C's for confirmation.

Have you considered the OU? If you aren't eligible for funding at Nottingham you won't be eligible for OU funding either, but it is cheaper, no need to do a foundation year, and you could still study full time if you wanted.

missbiggles1

^^^^^^

As above except that, unfortunately, the OU doesn't do a straight Physics degree but a BSc (Honours) in Maths and Physics.

I'm afraid that, unless you can self fund, this doesn't seem like a goer.

hannahvictorius

Thank you both for your responses.

I have tried an OU module before and didn't have a great experience.

I know I can get a part-time tuition fee loan for Engineering (or Tech/Computer Science) from 15/16 year, so that is the route I will take if I can't do the MPhys.

This is taken from the Student Finance site. It's sad it hasn't been more widely publicised as the policy was made in 2012 or 2013 I think, but I only discovered it this year after many years of internet research! Oh well.

You’ve studied before
You’ll usually get student finance only if you’re doing your first higher education qualification - even if your previous course was self-funded.

However, you may still get limited funding if, for example:

you change course
you leave your course but decide to start again
you’re ‘topping up’ a higher education qualification, eg you’ve finished an HNC, HND or Foundation Degree and now want to do an Honours degree
you hold an Honours degree or higher level of qualification and start a part-time Honours degree in engineering, technology or computer science (or a joint Honours in 2 of these subjects)

I am aware that it is still possible to take a Physics PhD with an Engineering background.

I guess it is just confusing that HEFCE don't consider an integrated masters as ELQ to an honours degree, but SFE/SLC do. Very confusing.

For now, I will carry on saving up for the foundation year and hope that physics may be adde to the exception in the coming years.

Voyager2002

You are contemplating an absolutely massive change of academic direction, and this will require lots of motivation and the capacity for independent study. So I am concerned that you were unable to benefit from an OU module. Granted that a few OU modules are poor, but most of them are excellent. Furthermore, I would regard someone's ability to get on with the OU style of study to be a reasonably good indicator of their capacity to do a research degree.

Anyway, it seems reasonably clear that no financial support for full-time study is available. So I suggest that you look at options for part-time study: the longest-established providers are the OU (of course) and Birkbeck College, University of London. And while you are saving, you might consider taking another OU module: perhaps not for credit (so that it becomes a lot cheaper) or you could even buy an OU "study pack", whereby you get all the course materials but no tutorials or assessment, and so it costs a lot less.

For the longer term, don't forget that there are some excellent English-medium universities in mainland Europe, where tuition fees are minimal or zero. Or you could look further afield: I am typing this from inside Hyderabad University, India. I am staying in a university room and paying four pounds per day (including three meals) so the cost of living is virtually nothing, while academic standards are pretty high.

hannahvictorius

Thanks for your response, Voyager2002.

The issue with the OU module wasn't to do with independent study, that I have no problem with. I am currently working through the material again in my evenings, to keep the maths muscle flexing.

I will take the engineering route at Nottingham, since that is where I live and work and I much prefer being around others rather than distance learning.

I have considered university in Germany, Sweden and India, but it's not so easy when you have relationships and mortgages to consider, so part-time at Nottingham is the best of both worlds at the moment.

You are right though, there doesn't seem to be any kind of loophole for full time study as ELQs don't really exist to Student Finance. They only look at previous HE study. Thanks though.

hannahvictorius

Just to follow on from my initial question, as these kinds of announcements tend to get lost, this is from today's autumn budget.

'1.183 Financial support for higher education will be increased substantially to enable people to
study for a degree. The government will lift the age cap on new loans to postgraduates from 2016-17 so they are available to all those under 60. Following a sharp decline in part-time students since 2008, the government will introduce new part-time maintenance loans from 2018-19 to support the cost of living while studying. The government expects 150,000 part-time students could benefit each year by the end of the Parliament. For all STEM subjects, tuition loans will be extended to students wishing to do a second degree from 2017-18.'

I am not allowed to post links, but the info can be found on the .gov site on page 53 of the 2015 autumn budget.