School Holiday Fines

christaitfife

As someone who has taught in state schools the issue is not with one child going on a one week holiday. The issue is with multiple children taking multiple weeks off. As a teacher you can realistically loose tens of hours of teaching time to catch children up (even when you are not meant to provide extra tuition).

I honestly believe that term time holidays should be allowed, but parents must contract a state approved tutor to catch their child up based on the teachers lesson plans. This would remove the legal noose from parents, all costs would be the responsibility of parents, there would be no more 'dire warnings' and teachers would not have to worry about the gaps.

phillw

christaitfife wrote: »

As someone who has taught in state schools the issue is not with one child going on a one week holiday. The issue is with multiple children taking multiple weeks off.

I understand the problem, but everyone has issues to deal with and teachers shouldn't trump everyone else.

The term times we have were specifically designed to allow parents to send their children to school when it was convenient, unfortunately we now treat them as sacred.

Guest101 wrote: »

Its fairly simple:
1: Lazy, dead beat parents weren't sending their kids to school.
2: Govt passes a law which says that children must regularly attend school - fair enough

Actually the government made it the parents responsibility to force children who refused to go to school without giving them any means to do so. You can argue that they didn't bring their children up right, but due to genetic and environmental factors they didn't stand a chance. The fact that the law is mainly used to raise funds from middle class families is typical of the UK.

Guest101

christaitfife wrote: »

As someone who has taught in state schools the issue is not with one child going on a one week holiday. The issue is with multiple children taking multiple weeks off. As a teacher you can realistically loose tens of hours of teaching time to catch children up (even when you are not meant to provide extra tuition).

I honestly believe that term time holidays should be allowed, but parents must contract a state approved tutor to catch their child up based on the teachers lesson plans. This would remove the legal noose from parents, all costs would be the responsibility of parents, there would be no more 'dire warnings' and teachers would not have to worry about the gaps.

Why?


Parents are in general more than capable of teaching their child from any lesson plan you might have.


You are trained to teach 20-30 children at once, to hold their attention and control the classroom, to plan the lessons, work from the curriculum etc etc.


You're train to be a teacher.


Most parents would easily be able to step in for the odd topic in a 1 to 1 setting.


So I fail to see how a tutor is required at all. Frankly the idea is short sighted.

wurley

Dragon2273 wrote: »

I think this is yet another example of this Tory government penalising the poor whilst the rich do as they please! A £60 fine is not worth worrying about for the better off whereas for poorer families it can be make or break.

Schools put a lot of effort in helping poor families' children get on better in life. Just a thought but looking at the stats if the poorer children are being made to stay in school, they should attain higher results and become one of the high earning people being moaned about.... :j

christaitfife

Guest101 wrote: »

Why?


Parents are in general more than capable of teaching their child from any lesson plan you might have.


You are trained to teach 20-30 children at once, to hold their attention and control the classroom, to plan the lessons, work from the curriculum etc etc.


You're train to be a teacher.


Most parents would easily be able to step in for the odd topic in a 1 to 1 setting.


So I fail to see how a tutor is required at all. Frankly the idea is short sighted.

Yes, MOST are capable, some aren't and some just don't bother.

I have no doubt that most parents are brilliant and ensure that homework is done, reading is done and children are read to and kids are not left in front of TV's all evening. Indeed, I actually know this to be the case.

Unfortunately many parents are not like this and of those parents I would say that these are the people most likely to take their children out of class during term times.

I say that a state approved tutor should catch the child up before returning to school because if this happened a tutor would be able to pull the lesson plans from the LA's server, teach and assess and complete the required progress reports. This would have an effect that the child would return to school as if nothing had been missed for them, the teacher would not have any extra work (teaching or paper) to do and the parent would not have to worry about breaking any laws.

And yes... parents may be able to teach basics. Most would be able to teach sentence structure and mathematical principles. Some would be able to teach some of the more complex maths and English language. How about how to order verbs, nouns and adjectives? Part participles? How about enlargement of shape by fractional shape (age 10 maths)? or why sin x = 2 sin x/2 cos 2/x (age 15ish maths) ?

The abilities of almost all parents as parents are amazing. When working with children you see that in the children every single day. The abilities of parents in understanding what their children learn does vary massively.

sheramber

militant_mum wrote: »

Hi, I paid £240 fines in 2015 for 1 weeks family holiday. Other than that my children's attendance was excellent. I am today drafting a Small Claims Application to apply for a refund (the Council have refused to issue one) based on the Isle of White case. All the information you can provide will be very useful. We have also approached our local MP, who seems to be sympathetic. This is a really unpopular bit of legislation! I can post a draft copy of my application if anyone wants it.

See post 31- this decision is under appeal

Guest101

christaitfife wrote: »

Yes, MOST are capable, some aren't and some just don't bother. - So a law that targets 'most' parents would be fair would it?

I have no doubt that most parents are brilliant and ensure that homework is done, reading is done and children are read to and kids are not left in front of TV's all evening. Indeed, I actually know this to be the case. - Exactly, so why advocate a law that would penalise those parents?

Unfortunately many parents are not like this and of those parents I would say that these are the people most likely to take their children out of class during term times. - But given that you advocate changing it so any parent can, it would be safe to assume that the 'spread' of holidays would increase across the board.

I say that a state approved tutor should catch the child up before returning to school because if this happened a tutor would be able to pull the lesson plans from the LA's server, teach and assess and complete the required progress reports. - Something which could be arrange for parents to do with no real investment. This would have an effect that the child would return to school as if nothing had been missed for them, the teacher would not have any extra work (teaching or paper) to do and the parent would not have to worry about breaking any laws. - But would have to pay the cost presumably?

And yes... parents may be able to teach basics. Most would be able to teach sentence structure and mathematical principles. Some would be able to teach some of the more complex maths and English language. How about how to order verbs, nouns and adjectives? Part participles? How about enlargement of shape by fractional shape (age 10 maths)? or why sin x = 2 sin x/2 cos 2/x (age 15ish maths) ? - I suspect most people would be able to. Perhaps they'd need an hour refresher with a bit of googling. I think most people would do that rather than pay £60 (each). If they can't, it should be a clear demonstration that the education system isn't working, as they will have studied this as young people themselves.

The abilities of almost all parents as parents are amazing. When working with children you see that in the children every single day. The abilities of parents in understanding what their children learn does vary massively.

As I say 1 on 1, I think most parents would cope (and you have tended to show some agreement towards that)


It's almost moot as the two options are:


Change the law and the govt pay for the tutor (a double hit of loss of income from fines and extra cost of tutors)


Or change the law and the parent pays, thereby removing any incentive, as the cost would still remain.

thriftyemma

I HAD to take my 4yo DD out of school for 10 days in September. She had moderate (30-40%) hearing loss due to glue ear, among other related health problems. Her hearing loss was affecting everyday life, and she was struggling at school. She had surgery, and the only available time was during school term time. It was a difficult decision, but ultimately, it needed to be done as soon as possible. She missed 10 days of school due to recovering, and then went back to school.

Having spoken to her teacher, those 10 missed days have hugely disrupted her learning. It has also affected the whole class, due to the teacher needing to spend extra time with DD to help her catch up. DD is still behind where she is expected to be, but now her hearing has improved, so has her school work. The teacher agrees it was well worth taking DD out of school to resolve the hearing problem.

I know taking your child out of school for health care isn't the same as a holiday, but in essence it is. The child misses school, they're behind their classmates, and the whole class is affected. I understand there are certain situations, such as armed forces personnel and company-dictated holiday times, but these are catered for in the legislation.

Simply put, what is more important? Saving £500? Or the education of your child and the entire class?

Guest101

thriftyemma wrote: »

I HAD to take my 4yo DD out of school for 10 days in September. She had moderate (30-40%) hearing loss due to glue ear, among other related health problems. Her hearing loss was affecting everyday life, and she was struggling at school. She had surgery, and the only available time was during school term time. It was a difficult decision, but ultimately, it needed to be done as soon as possible. She missed 10 days of school due to recovering, and then went back to school.

Having spoken to her teacher, those 10 missed days have hugely disrupted her learning. It has also affected the whole class, due to the teacher needing to spend extra time with DD to help her catch up. DD is still behind where she is expected to be, but now her hearing has improved, so has her school work. The teacher agrees it was well worth taking DD out of school to resolve the hearing problem.

I know taking your child out of school for health care isn't the same as a holiday, but in essence it is. The child misses school, they're behind their classmates, and the whole class is affected. I understand there are certain situations, such as armed forces personnel and company-dictated holiday times, but these are catered for in the legislation.

Simply put, what is more important? Saving £500? Or the education of your child and the entire class?

What was stopping you keeping her upto date with a few things here and there.


Sure recovery is tough, but 10 days? Surely there were a few hours here and there?

phillw

Dragon2273 wrote: »

I think this is yet another example of this Tory government penalising the poor whilst the rich do as they please! A £60 fine is not worth worrying about for the better off whereas for poorer families it can be make or break.

The Education (Penalty Notices) (England) Regulations 2007 act introduced the fines, the Tories came into parliament as part of the coalition in 2008. So it's actually a Labour indirect tax.

But you are correct, if you have more money then you have more choices. Nobody owes you anything and you can drag yourself out of poverty.

While I agree the school holiday system is broken, I don't have much sympathy for anyone who choses to have a family without considering how they are going to pay for it.

With so many technical resources now there should be no reason why there can't be a limited form of flexi-time at certain points in the year. The classes can be recorded etc. It's not like when you had to be in the room and quickly copy down what was on the black board, before it got erased to be replaced with the next lot.

Instead everyone involved will just waste time repeatedly debating about how unfair it is to expect teachers/families/holiday companies to keep doing what they are doing or changing. We need a solution that focuses on education rather than worshiping hundred year old rules.