EMERGENCY!! bailiffs, c.tax, no idea! Scots law

rog2

moneymare wrote: »

And I will support the work the Bailiffs do - its an incredibly tough job.

THAT is your prerogative, mm. The OP started this thread because HE/SHE was 'scared stiff' about what the bailiffs might do.
Nowhere did he/she mention trying to 'avoid' paying the debt, only that he/she was worried that it might not be possible to get all of the money together within 14 days.
The advice given, by myself and fermi, was to contact the council, even if it meant going through one of the debt counselling charities.
This advice was, certainly in my case, given because we know, from the receiving end, how difficult it can be to 'deal' with bailiffs. In all the dealings that I have, personally, had with 'bailiffs', I have found their attitude to be aggressive, threatening and unprofessional, with many lies about their 'power'.
You, on the other hand, see bailiffs from a different angle. Your main interest is the 'recovery of debt' and you most probably are only judging by results - i.e. 'how much of the original debt is recovered and in what time frame'.
What you can not see, or comment on, is the methods used in order to 'collect' this money, or the misery that unscrupulous bailiffs can inflict on an 'alleged debtor'.
I appreciate that you do not see many complaints - I would imagine that many people are either too scared to complain, or unaware of their rights. The fact that you see ANY complaints is indicative of a problem, and you, as a representative of a public authority, have a duty to ensure that these complaints are properly and thoroughly investigated.
I would not wish it on you, or anybody, but, perhaps one day you may be on the 'receiving end' of the 'business end' of a bailiff. Perhaps you might, then, reconsider your opinion.
In the meantime, please, show some respect for the opinion/experience of those who HAVE been there, and maybe, just maybe, a little bit of compassion for those 'debtors' whose lives are affected by the actions of these 'people'.

moneymare

rog2 wrote: »

THAT is your prerogative, mm. The OP started this thread because HE/SHE was 'scared stiff' about what the bailiffs might do.
Nowhere did he/she mention trying to 'avoid' paying the debt, only that he/she was worried that it might not be possible to get all of the money together within 14 days.
The advice given, by myself and fermi, was to contact the council, even if it meant going through one of the debt counselling charities.
This advice was, certainly in my case, given because we know, from the receiving end, how difficult it can be to 'deal' with bailiffs. In all the dealings that I have, personally, had with 'bailiffs', I have found their attitude to be aggressive, threatening and unprofessional, with many lies about their 'power'.
You, on the other hand, see bailiffs from a different angle. Your main interest is the 'recovery of debt' and you most probably are only judging by results - i.e. 'how much of the original debt is recovered and in what time frame'.
What you can not see, or comment on, is the methods used in order to 'collect' this money, or the misery that unscrupulous bailiffs can inflict on an 'alleged debtor'.
I appreciate that you do not see many complaints - I would imagine that many people are either too scared to complain, or unaware of their rights. The fact that you see ANY complaints is indicative of a problem, and you, as a representative of a public authority, have a duty to ensure that these complaints are properly and thoroughly investigated.
I would not wish it on you, or anybody, but, perhaps one day you may be on the 'receiving end' of the 'business end' of a bailiff. Perhaps you might, then, reconsider your opinion.
In the meantime, please, show some respect for the opinion/experience of those who HAVE been there, and maybe, just maybe, a little bit of compassion for those 'debtors' whose lives are affected by the actions of these 'people'.

I think you'll find, I also advised it best for the OP to contact the Bailiffs asap to try and resolve the matter.

I can assure you that all complaints are examined thoroughly.

Having worked in this job for the past 10 years, I am experienced enough to know that if I was to receive a Reminder Letter, Final Notice, Summons or Liability Order Questionnaire, I would be looking to resolve the problem as soon as possible.
My sympathy wanes for people who choose to ignore all previous correspondence and then feel the need to complain when they are subject to Bailiff action, or any other form of recovery action - eg Attachment to Earnings, or in extreme cases, bankruptcy.

Unfortunately, Ignorance or 'Ostrich-syndrome' is no defence.

rog2

moneymare wrote: »

My sympathy wanes for people who choose to ignore all previous correspondence and then feel the need to complain when they are subject to Bailiff action, or any other form of recovery action - eg Attachment to Earnings, or in extreme cases, bankruptcy.

How CAN you assume that the OP has received any of the correspondence that you refer to?

Do you not accept that, having moved house, there is a DISTINCT possibility that the letters, that you refer to, MAY have been sent to the old address and not forwarded?

By the way - I advised the OP to contact the Council, rather than the bailiffs, because there is more chance, in doing that, that he/she will be able to fully explain the situation, rather than talk to somebody whose sole purpose is to collect money, with absolutely NO interest in the circumstances that may or may not be associated with the case in question.

moneymare

How can you assume that he hasn't received the correspondence?

And in moving house, would you not contact the local authority to advise them you were moving.......?? Unless you have something to hide???

Come on, Council Tax has been around for over 10 years now - you know it is there and needs to be paid, so when you move in or out of a property, its something you address.

fiveyearplan

Wordsfan - are you sure you owe the tax in the first place? I would phone the council concerned at the first instance and explain what you've said here. I am sure they will let you pay it off in a couple of payments. Don't be intimidated by the bailiffs and do not let them into your home. They can however enter through an open window so keep them closed! You'll get through this!

Moneymare - can't quite figure out how you are trying to help the OP. You actually haven't contributed anything helpful. Have you ever been in debt? If not what are you doing here?

rog2

moneymare wrote: »

How can you assume that he hasn't received the correspondence?

I have made NO ASSUMPTIONS as to whether he/she had received them whatsoever, and that, mm, would appear to be the difference between you and me.
The Poster came on and asked for advice, which I gave WITHOUT any pre-conceived assumptions. In fact, if you read my post, you will see what I said about the type of bailiff that, in my experience, councils generally use.
You will, also, see that I asked the OP if he/she had been aware of the debt.

Your posts seem to imply that bailiffs ONLY visit debtors who are trying to 'AVOID' debt, whereas there are many, many examples of 'so-called bailiffs' causing undue stress to perfectly innocent people.

TRUE - I have no proof that the OP is not trying to 'AVOID' a perfectly reasonable and genuine debt, but then again YOU have no PROOF that he/she is.

A second look at the OP's post will show you that he/she has not been receiving his/her Tax Credits, due to a delay by the payment office, yet he/she is desperately trying to see if he/she can get the required money together, within the time frame demanded by the 'bailiffs'.

That, to me, does not suggest the actions of someone who is trying to 'avoid' responsibility for the debt.

plumduff-2

How can you assume that he hasn't received the correspondence?

Why would the OP lie to us.. he has nothing to lose by telling us the truth...

As I said, we have very few complaints (count them on one hand in the last year) about the Firms we use

Thats probably because people do not know they can complain and who they can complain to.. As I have found whenI have informed people of their rights to complain... Lack of complaints will be down to this and not because you and your agents.. - the bailiffs - are doing a sterling job...

BTW moneymare.. your posting during the day, can we assume that you are doing this at work... Maybe your collection rates would improve if you sepnt the day actually collecting CT and not !!!!ing about on the internet...

Oh dont tell me, it's your day off...! :rolleyes:

rog2

Hi wordfan - Any update yet?

I did, originally, advise you to contact the Council, directly, as it has been my experience that it is easier to negotiate direct with the Council, rather than with a 'bailiff'.
However, judging by the attitude of 'moneymare's' posts, and his admission that he actually works for a Council on Council Tax Collections, I'm beginning to think that I may have given you some wrong advice.
All I can say is, thank goodness, not ALL Council employees would appear to share mm's attitude towards Council Tax Debtors - particularly one, like you, who only wants to resolve the problem.
And don't worry - Not even a bailiff can take what you don't have.

wordsfan

WOW!! what a hornet's nest I've stirred up here - seems there are some things that need clarifying.

Whilst in an official sense what MM is saying is correct - I cannot help but sense a lack of sympathy and compassion for those of us on this forum who, whilst yes we are in debt, on many occasions this is through no fault of our own and we ARE trying to get these debts paid off. Which if you are like me and on a low income, living in an expensive location (not through mere choice) and a single parent is NOT EASY. My debts have accrued for a number of reasons:

A - a very messy divorce (inc the fact that my ex wiped out the joint bank accounts - 2 days after I kicked him out for not being able to keep his pants on! and hid the documents relating to other funds and assets for 2 years - only 'finding' them when the courts threatened to search his home and workplace. also, his refusal to pay any child maintenance until the CSA and DWP got involved!!)

B - I had applied for my uni place and been accepted before the above happened and why should I miss out for ex's stupidity?! plus I was going for a good useful degree (English) and this would enhance my employment opportunities, thereby ensuring - eventually, as once debts paid I hope to train as a High School teacher - a solid future for my daughter and I. (Lord knows we can't depend on her father!!)

C - Having worked very hard and being on course for a 2:1/1st in my degree I unfortunately, not surprising really considering I had no real support network regarding my DD, my best friend had (with very good reason) just moved away - and I was about to lose the friends I'd made at uni, had what used to be called a nervous breakdown, as I was beginning to recover from this with the help of an Excellent GP and local psychiatric team, I unfortunately was involved in a very nasty car accident which left me unable to complete my uni course (however I had attained enough marks to pass and still get my degree).

Until you've walked in someone's shoes MM - you have NO RIGHT TO JUDGE!! I would bet money (which as we all know here is a serious commodity) that you've never been in debt in your life - simply because you have been LUCKY!!

I was NEVER in debt before I was a student and I was not extravagant. My money went on BASIC living costs and study materials.

To dispel the other obvious misconceptions I have already experienced from people who work for local councils and the DWP (Grrr!):

I am now 35 years old, I began university at 30 years old, I have worked full time since I was 18 and had never claimed anything until my ex started messing about and left me and DD with nothing (we had agreed I would be a stay at home mum until she was 2 as he was on good money in the armed forces). My ex and I had been married for 5 years when DD came along and she was very much planned. (So I hope that clears up the usual single mum judgements)

1. Firstly a confession - the visit was in regard to an overpayment of housing benefit and not council tax, I panicked and didn't read the note properly - however the same council are also claiming council tax arrears from me. After speaking to my local CAB (having failed to get through to national debtline) I now have an appointment with a solicitor who specialises in such matters next tuesday.

2. The first I heard ANYTHING about either debt was approximately 2 weeks ago. I contacted the council immediately to try and remedy the situation.

3. The council concerned are worse than useless, in summary I have discovered:

a - I am not liable for the council tax charge as I was indeed
classified as a student for the time it is being claimed by the
council.

b - I am also not liable for the housing benefit claim as I never
received this money - however proving a negative is practically
impossible.

c - the council can't even agree within its own dept how much the
debt should be, at on point - last week - I received 3 letters from 3
DIFFERENT people in the same office with DIFFERENT amounts on
for the same debt (in this case the council tax one mm - explain that one then do us all a favour and go and polish your trident elsewhere - preferably in an evening class that teaches compassion!)

4. After speaking to CAB I did indeed contact the bailiffs - whose phone number was virtually unreadable on the document - not an accident I don't think - and I have agreed with them to repay the debt over a 3 month period (but as I have said I am seeking legal advice regards reclaiming this money.)

5. As I was a student the only contact I had with this council while living in its jurisdiction was to claim (a very small amount of) housing benefit - which I cancelled as soon as I knew that I was moving up here. Because of this I saw no need to give them a forwarding address. However, I had my mail re-directed for 3 months, in which time I think it reasonable they should have been in touch were there a problem of any kind. Also where I lived was in social housing and known to the council and the council could easily have contacted my old landlords for my forwarding address which they had, the same applies to my university which they also had knowledge of as I'd had to give them a letter at the beginning of each academic year on university headed paper advising I was a full time student in order to apply for council tax exemption. I am stunned that this council was able to take me to court in the first instance for a debt which I had no knowledge of and not have to show the court that they had made reasonable attempts to contact me.

rog2

Wow wf - that post certainly puts things into perspective. :shocked: :shocked:

You are quite right - and it is one of the overriding principles of this forum - other posters should NOT be judgemental, especially when they are NOT aware of the facts.

Creditors, including Councils, nearly always assume that debtors are 'avoiding' their debts, and often resort to court action far too quickly in order to 'shift' all responsibility to the debtor. They are, too often, very quick to point out that they are 'doing their job' yet seldom do they consider, or try to find out, the circumstances of the 'alleged debtor' before resorting to litigation.

I need a bit of time to think about your situation, but it seems to me that you would benefit from having someone to 'fight your corner'. Ask CAB if they have a list of local solicitors who will give a free, initial, consultation - by the sound of it you would almost certainly qualify for legal aid. Perhaps a Solicitor's letter to both the Tax Credit people, AND the Council would help to get things back to a level where you can, reasonably, discuss the situation and agree to a mutually acceptable plan to deal with these 'alleged debts'.