fined for a poo we did not commit!

sheramber

I have known people bend down and pretend to pick up a non existant poo in case anybody is watching and thinks they have omitted to pick up.

lisa110rry

Gosh, really? I may do that in future.

katglasgow

Thanks for all your replies - especially delta whiskey hotel - your explanation of events is very accurate and I will make sure I check your posts when writing my letter so that I get my terminology correct.

My husband has a photocopy of the penalty notice that he completed and posted back. The box he has ticked says "I dispute the validity of this fixed penalty notice and wish to request a court hearing".

The community safety team have no record of receiving this notice
The also say that they sent us a 1st reminder letter.............but we never received this.

So how do I deal with this? We returned the letter as stated, but they are saying they didn't get it. My husband is kicking himself for not getting proof of posting, however, it is quite clear in the regulations that this is not required.

If they now send out details to the debt collection agency what does this mean? Is it not possible for us to have an opportunity either formally or informally to put forward our side of events?
It seems really unfair.

My own thought are to send an letter to the community safety team, explaining that I am disappointed that we have been denied the opportunity to have a hearing as we did complete and return the form (I can include a photo copy of the notice that my husband completed which has the date he sent it written by him at the bottom). I am going to repeat the request for a hearing in this letter. I will send the letter with proof of posting but also by email. (is it worth sending a copy to their complaints department at this stage too?)

Is it worth also including with this letter a sheet detailing the basis of our appeal?

My husband is very clear that our dog was actually doing a pee.

When I spoke to the supervisor on friday on the phone he told me that he had video footage of my husband (I think the wardens all have small cameras on their jackets for safety purposes). So it occurs to me that I should be able to ask them to check the video footage to confirm the dogs position.

I have taken 2 photos to also include: 1 showing my dog squatting for a pee, and 1 showing him leaning back to poo. They are very different positions, so it occurs to me that they should be able to check the dogs positions on the video. They should also have footage of my husband showing his supply of dog poo bags to the warden when he was approached.

I can also confirm the distance between the warden and my husband when the alleged incident took place (the warden was on the other side of the road.

Unfortunately, it was a wet day so harder to identity "fresh poo" - but my husband also has a photo of the area in question and deposits that were there. Is it worth including a photo of a fresh poo from our dog - very distinct and significantly larger than anything in the area in question!

If you have time to answer some of my questions, I would be very grateful, thanks!

teddysmum

Have you asked them to send you a copy of the footage, by email ,as I believe you can do this in the case of an alleged motoring offence?

katglasgow

Dear Sirs,

Ref: FPN Cxxxxxxxxx

I am writing to confirm that I wish to request a hearing at court in respect of the above fixed penalty notice.
On 12th Sept, I was stopped by a community warden and issued with a fixed penalty notice for dog fouling. I completed the notice, ticking the box to say that I wished to dispute the validity of this notice and request a court hearing. I posted the notice back on 17th September (copy attached).
On 23rd October I received a 2nd reminder letter stating that I had not made payment and that the matter would now be passed to the procurator fiscal. This letter said that I had already received a first reminder - I did not receive this.
I therefore instructed my wife to phone the community safety team on my behalf on 23rd October. At 3.30pm, my wife spoke to a supervisor who informed her that my original returned had not been received and that the matter would now be passed to a debt collection agency. My wife tried to explain that I had infact returned the notice requesting a hearing and I feel concerned that this had not been received and that I will miss the opportunity to defend myself.
The Dog Fouling (Scotland) Act 2003 clearly states that I have a right to request a hearing and that returning the notice to you by post is deemed as sufficient.
(2)A notice requesting a hearing under subsection (1) shall be in writing and shall be sent by post or delivered to the local authority specified in the fixed penalty notice at the address so specified.
(3)For the purposes of this section, unless the contrary is proven, the sending of a notice by post is deemed to have been effected at the time at which the notice would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
I would also like to confirm that I did not receive a first reminder for this notice as per the stated procedure. If I had received a 1st reminder letter, this would have alerted me to the fact that you had not received my request for a hearing at an earlier date, giving me more time to follow it up.
The grounds for my dispute are attached.
I look forward to hearing from you,
Yours faithfully,

katglasgow

I have to go out now but I will be on again later and will post up our photos. Its a 4 lane road that the warden was on 1 side of, my husband was in a park on the other side of the road. If would be hard to see the colour of the dog from that distance never mind whether the dog was squatting or sitting back. I'll type up our appeal and try to post it. Would appreciate opinions on whether is is worth sending this in with my letter above or not. It looks like it is possible for the community safety team to withdraw the notice before a court case, so I am hoping that if they see the facts they might see sense and withdrawn it?
My husband is still adament that he will defend this all the way. We hate dog poo on the streets and we always pick up....

katglasgow

OK - if anyone is still following this, here is the basis of my dispute / appeal. Do you think I should include it with my letter, or do I save it for court? Are we still able to take this to court? I am a bit unclear as to what exactly happen now given that they say they have not received my husbands letter.

Dispute of Fixed Penalty Notice Ref: FPN Cxxxxxx

I am disputing the penalty notice because when the wardens saw me in Bellahouston, my dog was urinating and not defecating.
My dog urinates in the squatting position (as shown in the photo below).



For reference, I have enclosed below a photograph of my dog defecating.



As you can see, my dog's body is positioned quite differently.
My wife was told by the supervisor on 23rd October that the alleged incident was filmed by the warden and I believe that if you check this footage, you will see that my dog is in the squatting position for urinating.
You will also see on the footage, that when approached by the wardens I also showed them that I had several "doggy poo" bags in my pocket.

Secondly, I enclosed a photograph showing the distance that was between myself and the wardens at the time of the alleged incident.
The photograph below is taken from the position that I was standing in - the wardens were outside the blue shop face (Parkview) on the other side of Paisley Road West - a busy main road with 4 lanes of traffic.



The photograph below it taken from the position of where the warden was standing looking into where I was standing in the park. These photographs were taken just after the wardens left me and so the traffic, weather and light conditions given an accurate representation of those on the day in question.



Finally, when I denied having allowed my dog to defecate in the park, the wardens and I then walked over the area that I had been standing in. We were able to identify a small amount of dog faeces in this area, but in my opinion it was not "fresh" and not of a size that one would expect to be produce by a large dog such as mine (40kg labrador).

On the next page, are some photographs of the area in question.





[FONT=&quot]Left hand side - larges dog faeces found in area on 12/9/15

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Right hand side - typical dog faeces secreted by my dog
[/FONT]
TO FOLLOW _ I WILL DO THIS MON AM

I am a law abiding and responsible dog owner and father of 2 children. I always carry "dog poss bags" with me, and I always pick up after my dog.
I would ask you to take the time to study the film footage of the incident and to consider my explanation.
Thank you.

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teddysmum

The poses are very different (just like my Teddy's; can always tell what he's doing). However,unless the warden has brilliant eyesight, I would think it difficult to tell them apart from such a distance.


As mentioned before, ask for the photographic evidence to be sent to you, as your husband has a right to defend himself.

lemontart

had this happen to me few years back - same thing dog was female so squats to pee, the the poo that the warden claimed my dog did was dry and clearly not fresh. Paid it as knew was on a hiding to nothing but was seriously !!!!ed off as always pick up after my dogs. with bags in every bag, coat and car etc

DeltaWhiskyHotel

Sorry, been away for a couple of days. Haven't had a chance to keep up to date.

I've read through all of the OP' s notes and explanations. Unfortunately, none of the arguments actually help an awful lot (at least in strict evidential terms). The photos of what your dog looks like when it poos, and what its poo usually look like, don't (and obviously can't) show what actually happened at the time.

If this reaches the Court, all that should matter (and I stress the 'should') is whether the prosecuting authority can show 'beyond all reasonable doubt' that the incident happened as they say. So, it does help if you could show that the officer could have been mistaken (e.g. because he was too far away).

There's a fair difference between the two doggy positions as portrayed - remember many officers may be well aware of dog behaviour, and well able to tell those apart, even from a distance (especially if they do this as a job). My own dog, on the odd occasion, uses the same position to urinate rather than lifting his leg and I can tell the difference from a 'poo' squat' at a good distance.

His poo size (what a topic of conversation) also varies widely, from something a small horse would leave (where a bin bag would be more appropriate), down to dribble that barely covers a blade of grass (and I make sure I am seen at least trying to pick up even that).

But saying all that, I would keep those arguments for court - rather than disclosing them now ... not that I'd accuse any officer of possibly changing their statement, of course.

You're right, again if I remember correctly, that you should have been sent a 1st 'reminder' (technically, this is just a copy of the original Notice) which must be sent within, I think, 7 days from the event'.

But, I'm afraid, you not having it, is not the same as it not having been sent ... if that makes sense. And, it has nothing much to do with your request for a hearing.

I note that you state that you received a letter on 23 October informing you that a report was being made to the PF? If you have that letter, I would send a copy to the Council, asking whether they can confirm whether a report has been submitted. Hopefully their reply will clarify the true state of the case.

If they are not proceeding, and you can show that you asked for a hearing within the 28 days (although, again you are correct, you don't really have to prove that you sent a request for a hearing - but it would help - and you have their letter of the 23 October), then they should not now be chasing you for payment of the fine.

If they are proceeding, then you can wait until the hearing to present your arguments in defence of their submission. I suspect that the Council will not be likely to withdraw a report to the PK at this late stage.

If you can't get clarification, then that'll be the time to start with their complaints procedures.

Hope the above makes sense - it's getting late again ... and I didn't get to this until after a couple of whisky and green ginger!