fined for a poo we did not commit!

katglasgow

6 weeks aog, my husband was issued with a penalty for dog fouling. He refused to accept this as the dog had not fouled (he squats to pee) and as a result he agreed to wait with the warden while the police were called. Despite my husband showing the police officer and the warden that he had several "dog poo" bags in his pockets, and the warden was unable to show any large dog poos in the area that the incident was alleged to have happened, the police officer informed my husband that he had to give his name and address to the warden and that my husband should appeal. My husband then took the penalty notice. Later in that week, he completed the section stating he wished to appeal the notice and sent it off to the address.
Now, 6 weeks later, we have received a "2nd reminder letter" stating that the matter will be reported to the procurator fiscsal. It seems that the department did not received our appeal, and we most definitely did not receive a 1st reminder letter from them. The fine amount has now increased from £40 to £60 and I have been told that if we do not pay it we will have to go to court and pay all costs.
The bottom line here is - we are respsonsible dog owners, we have children, and we always pick up our dog poo. We have a large labrador who does 1 large poo first thing every morning - the items that were pointed out to my husband at the park were of a much smaller dog. My husband had dog poo bags on him which he showed the the warden and police officer. My dog always squats to pee.
We don't have much money, £60 is a lot of money to pay for something we didn't do, but we are terrified of standing out ground and ending up in court with a bill of hundreds of pounds. - do I pay the £60 fine and chalk it up to bad experience? - do I pay the fine and complain the the council and hope to get apology / reminbursement? - do we take a gamble and go to court? I cant find any evidence on line of anyone doing this and winning!
I am also concerned that if we do pay the fine we are admitting that we did do, when infact we didnt and this will go on record. My husband walks the dog in this area every saturday as my son attends a club nearby so what is to stop the same thing happening again?
Thanks

KARO

So the warden is saying that he/she witnessed your dog doing a poo?

Otherwise I can't see how they would know which poo on the ground belongs to which dog.


Probably a bit late now that your husband has given them your name and address, - that could turn out to be a costly mistake.

themull1

Did you send the appeal letter recorded or registered.

ampersand

I suspect the warden is incentivised.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33064119

This may be via in-house targets, or privately outsourced on Council's behalf.
#
This is not a silly suggestion, but please go to the parking tickets Forum for a broadbrush sweep at how this may be at work and how to overome what are legitimately called unenforceable invoices.

Pepipoo is the equivalent forum for purely Council parking offence tickets or motorists generally, but the same principles apply:
http://www.pepipoo.com/

There is a lot of crossover between mse and pepipoo posters.

#
Another absolute - because it runs counter to what feels correct [and #3]

NEVER USE RECORDED DELIVERY FOR REBUTTALS, CHALLENGES, APPEALS OR SIMILAR: any letter posted with a 1st-class stamp is deemed delivered within 48hours - full stop.
Instead, obtain and retain a FREE certificate of Posting from any PO counter.

[Sending a letter RD permits refusal of signature, thus denying you Proof of Delivery.]

-OR, keep a timed, dated printable screenshot of anything sumiitted online.

Marktheshark

The police officer was incorrect in informing him he had to give details to the council jobsworth.

katglasgow

Thanks for you replies.
First of all to answer your questions:

- My husband did not get proof of posting or send it registered/signed for or anything else. This has been his big mistake.

- The warden was on the other side of the road from him. What the warden definitely saw was the dog squatting down and then my husband walking away - the wardens have to wait until you walk away to prove that you were not going to clean it up. Of course, the reason for this was because our dog had actually only done a pee - this is what is being disputed. Our dog is male but he always squats to pee. When my husband was approached by the warden, he explained that the dog had only peed and they walked back to the area where it was alleged to have taken place. Unfortunately, as it was raining there was no obviously puddle of pee to support this and there was dogs dirt in the general area that the alleged incident took place - but it was all quite small and not labrador sized. My husband also pulled out a whole handful of dog poo bags from his pockets to prove that he always carries them.
- My husband was told by both the warden and then the police officer that is is an offence not to give your name and address for a fixed penalty notice.

I think my husband's big mistake has been not sending the appeal registered post, as the non payment is now due to be passed to a debt collection agency and court proceedings will then commence. My fear is once this happens we are talking bigger financial consequences if we are not able to prove our dog did not foul. The police officer told my husband it is his word against the wardens and told my husband he had to accept the notice, but that he should then appeal it which is exactly what he did.
It pains me to say it but I think I am going to have to pay the £60 this weekend as I dont think we can risk this - we just don't have the money to spare if is spirals out of control. Also, my husband is quite stressed at the moment at work and I don't think he could cope with this. However, I will also send a letter of complaint to the council department and copy it to the manager of the community safety team as I feel I was treated harshly on the phone today and it would have been more reasonable for the supervisor that I spoke to to have agreed to give me 7 days to send a 2nd copy of the appeal to him. Especially given that their 1st reminder that they say they sent to me was never received by me.

Lastly to answer another poster - the community wardens are employed directly by Glasgow City Council by they do have set targets to meet in terms of how many fines they issue (littering, dog fouling and dropping cigarette butts). I imagine the wardens are under a lot of pressure to meet their targets but the fact remains that my husband has been fined for something that he didn't do and we are now £60 out of pocket which is a lot of money to us - :mad:

katglasgow

ampersand wrote: »

I suspect the warden is incentivised.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33064119

This may be via in-house targets, or privately outsourced on Council's behalf.
#
This is not a silly suggestion, but please go to the parking tickets Forum for a broadbrush sweep at how this may be at work and how to overome what are legitimately called unenforceable invoices.

Pepipoo is the equivalent forum for purely Council parking offence tickets or motorists generally, but the same principles apply:
http://www.pepipoo.com/

There is a lot of crossover between mse and pepipoo posters.

#
Another absolute - because it runs counter to what feels correct [and #3]

NEVER USE RECORDED DELIVERY FOR REBUTTALS, CHALLENGES, APPEALS OR SIMILAR: any letter posted with a 1st-class stamp is deemed delivered within 48hours - full stop.
Instead, obtain and retain a FREE certificate of Posting from any PO counter.

[Sending a letter RD permits refusal of signature, thus denying you Proof of Delivery.]

-OR, keep a timed, dated printable screenshot of anything sumiitted online.

I think the incentive to the wardens is that in order to keep their job they have to issue so many notices per week.
However as this is a fixed penalty I dont think it is possible for me to simply ignore it in the way that people do with private car park fines.

HappyMJ

katglasgow wrote: »

Thanks for you replies.
First of all to answer your questions:

- My husband did not get proof of posting or send it registered/signed for or anything else. This has been his big mistake.

- The warden was on the other side of the road from him. What the warden definitely saw was the dog squatting down and then my husband walking away - the wardens have to wait until you walk away to prove that you were not going to clean it up. Of course, the reason for this was because our dog had actually only done a pee - this is what is being disputed. Our dog is male but he always squats to pee. When my husband was approached by the warden, he explained that the dog had only peed and they walked back to the area where it was alleged to have taken place. Unfortunately, as it was raining there was no obviously puddle of pee to support this and there was dogs dirt in the general area that the alleged incident took place - but it was all quite small and not labrador sized. My husband also pulled out a whole handful of dog poo bags from his pockets to prove that he always carries them.
- My husband was told by both the warden and then the police officer that is is an offence not to give your name and address for a fixed penalty notice.

I think my husband's big mistake has been not sending the appeal registered post, as the non payment is now due to be passed to a debt collection agency and court proceedings will then commence. My fear is once this happens we are talking bigger financial consequences if we are not able to prove our dog did not foul. The police officer told my husband it is his word against the wardens and told my husband he had to accept the notice, but that he should then appeal it which is exactly what he did.
It pains me to say it but I think I am going to have to pay the £60 this weekend as I dont think we can risk this - we just don't have the money to spare if is spirals out of control. Also, my husband is quite stressed at the moment at work and I don't think he could cope with this. However, I will also send a letter of complaint to the council department and copy it to the manager of the community safety team as I feel I was treated harshly on the phone today and it would have been more reasonable for the supervisor that I spoke to to have agreed to give me 7 days to send a 2nd copy of the appeal to him. Especially given that their 1st reminder that they say they sent to me was never received by me.

Lastly to answer another poster - the community wardens are employed directly by Glasgow City Council by they do have set targets to meet in terms of how many fines they issue (littering, dog fouling and dropping cigarette butts). I imagine the wardens are under a lot of pressure to meet their targets but the fact remains that my husband has been fined for something that he didn't do and we are now £60 out of pocket which is a lot of money to us - :mad:

It's just a penalty at this stage.

The police attended so let it go to court and defend yourself calling the police officer as a witness. The police officer didn't see any fouling so will testify to that.

Don't worry about it. It's well worth the risk. It will not spiral out of control. It's just a petty minor matter anyway and probably won't even get to court.

teddysmum

I sometimes think it would be my 'luck' to be 'caught', as though I pick up after my dogs, someone round here obviously doesn't.


I know that some people pick up after other people's dogs, but I would rather not risk contamination.


I would ask to see the photographic evidence and offer another sample for DNA matching to the offending poo (because, of course you realise that they have the evidence.) In fact, knowing I was in the right, I would have insisted on their taking the offending sample to compare with a future sample from my dog.


My boys are castrated and one squats like a female, while the other just stand on all fours.

ampersand

;#I think my husband's big mistake has been not sending the appeal registered post, as the non payment is now due to be passed to a debt collection agency and court proceedings will then commence.#

Rubbish! V. glad to see Mark posting here to buoy up the advice given. MTS posts regularly and well on the Parking Forum.

'the wardens have to wait until you walk away to prove that you were not going to clean it up.'

This is the equivalent of the burden and standard of proof required for theft i.e. the intention to permanently deprive, in shoplifting cases.

#
On an older Thread for this[2011] is a suggestion for dna testing. It may have been slightly frivolous THEN, but is logcal, essential. If the Warden cannot acceptably prove your lab. was responsible, there is no case - even under Scottish law.

As for Debt Collectors - NEVER EVER ENGAGE OR COMMUNICATE WITH THEM.

Go back to the Parking Forum newbies stickies for universal accurate advice on these lowlifes. They are not the principal: they cannot legally threaten you with Court.
Much huff'n'puff arises in their convincing intimidatory post, but look for 'may', 'could' therein :-)

Actual Court papers are a different matter: Scottish Courts have a better record in exercising common sense in such matters.

I hope MTS is still about to reinforce these points with me.
###
Having just seen this URBAN MYTH, have to come back straight away -
' I dont think it is possible for me to simply ignore it in the way that people do with private car park fines.' NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

THIS IS COMPLETELY WRONG - read and find out why, although where the offence was, where you live, makes a difference.

NEVER IGNORE, THE LAW CHANGED 3 YEARS AGO, OCT 2012.
#
op- this is not to hi-jack your post or topic, but to help and spread the word, killing off common myths and fears.

Please reinforce this aspect to your husband and do not cave in. Your signature is valuable and hard-won - you will keep that £60.

katglasgow

Found some useful information on a government web page:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2003/12/section/8

8Request for hearing

(1)A person to whom a fixed penalty notice has been issued may, before the expiry of the period for paying, give notice requesting a hearing in respect of the offence to which the fixed penalty notice relates.

(2)A notice requesting a hearing under subsection (1) shall be in writing and shall be sent by post or delivered to the local authority specified in the fixed penalty notice at the address so specified.

(3)For the purposes of this section, unless the contrary is proven, the sending of a notice by post is deemed to have been effected at the time at which the notice would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.


Recovery of unpaid fixed penalties

Subject to section 13, where a fixed penalty remains unpaid after the expiry of the period for paying and no request for a hearing has been made in accordance with section 8, it shall be enforceable in like manner as an extract registered decree arbitral bearing a warrant for execution issued by the sheriff court of any sheriffdom.


Judicial determination of enforcement of fixed penalty

(1)A person against whom a fixed penalty is being enforced under section 11 may apply to the sheriff by summary application for a declaration that the fixed penalty is not enforceable under that section on the ground that—

(a)the fixed penalty was paid before the expiry of the period for paying; or

(b)the person has made a request for a hearing in accordance with section 8.


Withdrawal of fixed penalty notice
(2)On summary application under subsection (1), the sheriff may declare—

(a)that the person has or, as the case may be, has not paid the fixed penalty within the period for paying;

(b)that the person has or, as the case may be, has not requested a hearing in accordance with section 8; and

(c)that the fixed penalty is or, as the case may be, is not enforceable under section 11.

Where a fixed penalty notice has been withdrawn—

(a)no amount shall be payable by way of fixed penalty in pursuance of that notice; and

(b)any amount paid by way of fixed penalty in pursuance of that notice shall be repaid to the person who paid it.

Going by my reading of above, our letter by "normal post" is quite acceptable.
I think I will pay the fine this weekend before if goes over to debt recovery but then issue a formal complaint, pointing out that we did request appeal, and that we met postal conditions, and that we feel it would have been reasonable to have given us 7 days to repost the appeal info. I will send a copy of the original appeal info with my complaint and i will ask GCC to withdrawn the penalty notice and to repaid the money.
I accept I am unlikely to see my £60 again but what i need to ensure is that they will have a record on file that we dispute being dog foulers as it does concern me that my husband will be back in this area regularly and I don't want this to happen again.