DRO and Fraud?

monsta2005

4.40 am.....Sleepless night per usual, contemplating whether what I have become is worth living for (the root of my debt is an appalling gambling habit, and I hate to admit the psychiatrist I seen a few months ago was probably right that the bi polar) . Sorry to go completely off topic, wasnt my aim.

I guess Ill elaborate on the actual title this tomorrow, If my prayers to disappear arent answered (sound like a pity case, I know).

If they are, simple message...dont gamble, get your mental issues under control (they wont disappear by themselves).

TheBanker

Hi

I really hope you read this. It sounds like you need to talk to someone. People here will help. Whatever problems you have, things always feel better when you talk to someone. And many who posted on MSE in the past will tell you there is no problem that can't be solved and no debt that can't be repaid.

Ant things always seem worse when it's 4.40 am.

If you feel you need to talk to someone straight away rather than waiting for replies, the Samaritans will listen and won't judge. 116 123 is free to call.

Good luck.

clint_S

have you got yourself self-excluded? this can be done for a period between 6 months and 5 years.


http://www.gambleaware.co.uk/confidential-support-and-advice/self-exclusion


The new system currently being rolled out, SENSE, allows for a single exclusion to cover all land based casinos.


http://www.nationalcasinoforum.co.uk/playingsafe/sense-information/

National_Debtline

Hi monsta


I look forward to you posting again on here in the knowledge that we can offer advice and support. As TheBanker says above, there is always a constructive solution to aim for.


Dennis
@natdebtline

monsta2005

Thanks for your responses. In my moments of clarity I did some productive things today (including phoning the national debt line) as I did last week...by phoning CAB and Stepchange. Gambling is the major issue, but was told months ago by a psychiatrist assessing me that I was bipolar and would be back if I didnt follow his advice (which I ignored, I thought I was BPD but could cure with the self help techniques I was learning- I believe my mania sprees are triggered by over/delusional optimism resulting form these). I stopped gambling completely for a period.of 4 months from March to July- I attended GA before getting dragged back in to this in August. Without excuses it was partially an existing debt from gambling much smaller which contributed to this.

Many of my suicidal thoughts come down to this....I cant tell my mum or brother, it would hurt them too much (sorry to go off topic). They thought all this was behind me- couldnt get any lower after march, after a suicide attempt. However I confided in my sister in law who also lives in the same house as us and was baffled at this level of debt (we are all modest, its a huge sum)- they all know I had been gambling again, but I suspected given some of my spending in recent months that they suspected I was doing well/atleast in control. I would estimate that the debts are 80% gambling related, 20% expenditure on other things/gifts to others, etc.
MBNA calculated alone that the cash advance fees since I opened the card (related to gambling I guess, were a £1000), let alone interest and Balance transfer Fees.

My current state is this; My JSA has been sanctioned for a month but will begin again on the 29th. However, I accept I am in no condition to work, something my long term JSA adviser (been on JSA for 5 months) told me regularly and I have been passed around since she retired. Incidentally I also went to see the GP today, begging for something to steady my mind at least, a referral to a psychiatrist ASAP for help, admitting I was wrong to ignore the psychiatrists diagnosis those months ago.

I also requested documentation/sick note which could be helpful for Barclaycard their support team advised me, but also to go on to ESA. He didnt oblige on either account. but he later rang...he seemed to realize that I wasnt using any of this as an excuse maybe from my record, history of depression and said he wishes to see me tomorrow.

Debts I owe:
MBNA £4300
Barclaycard £12400 (£3800 over the limit, I dont how that is even possible...yes my fault of course).
Lloyds £950 (0% balance transfer, unless...repayments 1%/ month unless a recent cash advance invalidated these terms (can anybody answer this by the way??). Exactly the same thing applies to the following two)
Halifax £970
Bank Of Scotland £2400


Available funds (hopefully by tomorrow) will be £1350 (£960 of this is an overdraft and thankfully I didnt blow this money too) -coming in from the only two online accounts I didnt bar myself previously.
. I have informed MBNA and Barclaycard of my SOA last week and both have kindly frozen Interest and payments and seemed somewhat understanding given my mental health.

Any advice on this situation in general?

Back to the original topic I ask the following questions with regards to DRO, something incidentally which I believe despite this horrible mess, gives me some hope (until my next mood swing I guess). Ill fire away:

1. I lied on every application regards to my income. What are the implications of this with regards to a DRO? I read that fraudulent debts are not discharged from a DRO. What are the implications in general? I confessed this last week to both creditors I have informed of this matter that I lied.

2. My debts currently lie at approx £21k. However, I understand I need to get this debt under £20k to be eligible for a DRO. Incidentally in my deluded mind I considered laying one horse for the whole amount available to me tomorrow (£1350) and try to make this shortfall back- however I wont do this. I was advised that I should aim to have this debt at around the £19.5k (allowing for interest) if I wanted a DRO. It was on this basis one adviser suggested bankruptcy. I still feel

I am considering possibly trying to borrow (Ive yet to decide whether to do this or not, mental illness or not-this is my fault). Is this a good tactic-trying to get the debts under £20k? If I did manage to raise the £1500 what would I do...spread the money on a pro rata basis ? And more fundamentally would this harm my chances of getting a DRO? Would I be breaking any terms here for a possible DRO?


3. When I did budget with Stepchange (funnily enough, maybe I spend too much on normal things...clearly I have no issue blowing a 4 figure sum on a night/day of gambling). I underestimated my living costs.

I went through a more reasonable budget with the national debtline today which gave me (£20/month). The fact I gave this original budget to StepChange-would it work against me if I applied for a DRO. I wasnt purposefully lying about anything.....

4. Fundamentally would you think this is the right path for me? My sister in law, Stepchange adviser, Barclaycard adviser, The first advisor (MBNA)...all...sort the gambling out, and atleast try to improve your mental state of mind (At this moment, I don't think I would given the hurt it would cause and my beliefs- but i was damn close twice). I accept at this moment


Thanks again for future responses.

HappyMJ

1. Fraudulently obtained debts are discharged in DRO and Bankruptcy. However, if the police get involved and you go to court, found guilty as part of the sentence you could get fines and a compensation order which must be paid to the court. A DRO or BR will not write the court fines off.

2. If you are considering a DRO or BR you really should not be taking on any further debt. I think you're also quite close to the limit and I would suggest BR as well.

3. Don't worry about budget's you sent to debt advisor's, The one that matters is the one you send to the court.

4. The right path...most probably.

I would also go to a solicitor before the police come after you. Get advice from them and be prepared for an eventual prison sentence. Fraud by misrepresentation is a serious offence.

National_Debtline

Hi again monsta


I'm concerned that in trying to get your debts below the £20K DRO threshold you could do more harm than good. Gambling/borrowing to bring the total down won't work, and if you do manage to raise £1.5K through legitimate means, you'd be better off simply spending it on a bankruptcy deposit + court fees @£705 in total.


For the time being, though, more important still is you addressing your gambling issues and getting the support you need with that.


Dennis
@natdebtline

fatbelly

sort the gambling out, and atleast try to improve your mental state of mind

I agree these are your priorities.

The debts are non-priority. It's probably better that you don't talk to them if you are going to go on about obtaining credit fraudulently. Can you use a third party like the CAB to liaise with them?

You are correct that fraudulent debts are not discharged at the end of a DRO moratorium, or on discharge from bankruptcy. However the wording of the technical manual is interesting:

40.178 Debt for fraud not released on discharge

A debt incurred by fraud is not released on discharge.

It has been held that fraud in the context of these provisions has simply to be proved in the common law sense, and is intended to refer to debts tainted by actual dishonesty, or where the act (breach of trust, for example) was both deliberate and involving dishonesty.

A fraud would not be present simply on the basis of a foreign judgment on an action for fraud nor would an obligation to repay money obtained under undue influence automatically be fraud for these purposes.

The most common fraudulently incurred debt encountered by the official receiver is likely to be a payment of social security benefits where the benefits were obtained fraudulently.

I've only met this in relation to fraudulent benefit overpayments.

monsta2005

National_Debtline wrote: »

Hi again monsta


I'm concerned that in trying to get your debts below the £20K DRO threshold you could do more harm than good. Gambling/borrowing to bring the total down won't work, and if you do manage to raise £1.5K through legitimate means, you'd be better off simply spending it on a bankruptcy deposit + court fees @£705 in total.


For the time being, though, more important still is you addressing your gambling issues and getting the support you need with that.


Dennis
@natdebtline

Thanks for your response again. Why would this not work...is this a technicality or you think I would harm my mental state/gamble?


I was thinking I could maybe borrow the money from someone and maybe repay at a later date. It would be a long shot of course, given the size of the amount to bring it below the mark. My assets I of course would be willing to part with also...the only real assets I have could possibly fetch £200-300 (Phone, Laptop). That would leave me with about £1200 to raise. Would this not work?

I was rejected for a reasonable credit card (and it was then I realized this mess really had gotten to far and reality set in-was deluded to the size of the mess). My credit rating until this last year was probably near perfect....I was never one to get cards, get into debt, borrow, etc. Very frugally I live clearly apart from gambling. Sorry too go on....completely off topic...:/

There are not only personal motives behind me trying to get below the £20k mark for the DRO- though many are. Family being one, and at least I have contributed more to the debt owed. I guess these are still technically personal motives. Again I wont lie I cant be consistent on what I want....Im kinda mentally unstable.

Im on it with the gambling and the mental issues I think. Dr prescribed me some mood stabilizers/anti depressants yesterday which given their strength should kick in quickly I hope-thank god. And he further said a referral to the psychiatrist would be ASAP which is a relief. Of course every time I think about this all it doesn't help (I accept despite mental illness, whatever, its still my fault...its my still my illness ultimately ).

Also hardest thing ever and told my brother about this- who was shocked (he questioned my erratic behavior over the month), but eventually supportive.

I just did some budget calculations and the minimum payments and my living expenses (given MBNA and Barclaycard freezing interest/payments, the latter however only for a month I believe I was told). I could afford to meet payments and 'meet basic requirements' technically for a month or two given that money has now come in and the frozen charges.

Also technically I am only in arrears with MBNA for a month. I guess I failed to mention this.....Stepchange said it was the correct choice to inform the creditors and I should seek to pay just token payments...until my situation improves,

HappyMJ

monsta2005 wrote: »

Thanks for your response again. Why would this not work...is this a technicality or you think I would harm my mental state/gamble?


I was thinking I could maybe borrow the money from someone and maybe repay at a later date. It would be a long shot of course, given the size of the amount to bring it below the mark. My assets I of course would be willing to part with also...the only real assets I have could possibly fetch £200-300 (Phone, Laptop). That would leave me with about £1200 to raise. Would this not work?

I was rejected for a reasonable credit card (and it was then I realized this mess really had gotten to far and reality set in-was deluded to the size of the mess). My credit rating until this last year was probably near perfect....I was never one to get cards, get into debt, borrow, etc. Very frugally I live clearly apart from gambling. Sorry too go on....completely off topic...:/

There are not only personal motives behind me trying to get below the £20k mark for the DRO- though many are. Family being one, and at least I have contributed more to the debt owed. I guess these are still technically personal motives. Again I wont lie I cant be consistent on what I want....Im kinda mentally unstable.

Im on it with the gambling and the mental issues I think. Dr prescribed me some mood stabilizers/anti depressants yesterday which given their strength should kick in quickly I hope-thank god. And he further said a referral to the psychiatrist would be ASAP which is a relief. Of course every time I think about this all it doesn't help (I accept despite mental illness, whatever, its still my fault...its my still my illness ultimately ).

Also hardest thing ever and told my brother about this- who was shocked (he questioned my erratic behavior over the month), but eventually supportive.

I just did some budget calculations and the minimum payments and my living expenses (given MBNA and Barclaycard freezing interest/payments, the latter however only for a month I believe I was told). I could afford to meet payments and 'meet basic requirements' technically for a month or two given that money has now come in and the frozen charges.

Also technically I am only in arrears with MBNA for a month. I guess I failed to mention this.....Stepchange said it was the correct choice to inform the creditors and I should seek to pay just token payments...until my situation improves,

There isn't really that much difference between a DRO and a full banktuptcy. A DRO is really just another name for a mini bankruptcy. You must have less than £20k of debts, virtually no capital such as a home and virtually no excess income which if you're on JSA you won't have any. Should you really be on JSA by the sounds of it you should be on ESA.

Stepchange would have advised the £1 payments as your situation could improve if you got a job. Do you believe you have a realistic chance of getting a job within the next 12 months? A good job where you can comfortably afford all of your living expenses and all of your debt payments? With over £21k of debts I'd be expecting you to be earning around £30k annual salary (net £1,950 per month) to afford your day to day living expenses (£1,450 per month?) and debt repayments. Repaying that debt at £500 per month with interest and fees being charged it will take around 5 years to clear your debts. You may as well declare yourself bankrupt now make no payments for 12 months whilst spending your time improving your job prospects then all your debt will be written off, you then get yourself a good job and start again.

monsta2005

HappyMJ wrote: »

There isn't really that much difference between a DRO and a full banktuptcy. A DRO is really just another name for a mini bankruptcy. You must have less than £20k of debts, virtually no capital such as a home and virtually no excess income which if you're on JSA you won't have any. Should you really be on JSA by the sounds of it you should be on ESA.

Stepchange would have advised the £1 payments as your situation could improve if you got a job. Do you believe you have a realistic chance of getting a job within the next 12 months? A good job where you can comfortably afford all of your living expenses and all of your debt payments? With over £21k of debts I'd be expecting you to be earning around £30k annual salary (net £1,950 per month) to afford your day to day living expenses (£1,450 per month?) and debt repayments. Repaying that debt at £500 per month with interest and fees being charged it will take around 5 years to clear your debts. You may as well declare yourself bankrupt now make no payments for 12 months whilst spending your time improving your job prospects then all your debt will be written off, you then get yourself a good job and start again.

Thank you for your response. No chance of a £35k/year job in the next year. No chance of a job at all given the number Ive applied for in the past few months and rejected for.

My gambling spree was significantly in the last month if I go and file for bankruptcy in the next couple of weeks-surely it will look like fraud? The funny part I always intended to pay it back (typical gambler)....when I had winnings I typically transferred them to the cards. I excluded from everywhere now- its not even possible for me to gamble.

Im so ashamed of myself-I sound like a pity case, yet im still very lucky. I had a good life-few worries (live with family, not married, single), live frugally, basic needs, bit of backpacking when finances permit. Incidentally for those who are matched betting, thats how I got dragged back in- matched betting provided my modest but adequate income for about a year, be careful.

Bipolar or not and certain situations which have arisen in my life pretty much in the last year - I have to bare responsibility for this.

Im really not sure what to do. People have had it much worse than me and I f*** up this bad, chance after chance, after chance.....to get out of it and escape with some dignity.

Spending thousands like that....its funny when Im in control Im a good gambler (but once compulsive always compulsive).

Im not sure what I can do here. No this isnt a cry for help, I guess I probably wont do anything stupid...like I have in the past. I wish I could...but I guess it would kill my mum and brother..Gambling to try to get out of debt- I was warned at GA. Life can seem boring or whatever at times...I'd take boring/peace any day now. To be somewhat normal.

Sorry to go completely off topic....Anyway anyone reading just dont gamble, simple as.