Are hydrogen fuel cell cars like Toyota Mirai the future?

stator

With the need for new nuclear power stations the opportunity is there for the government to take, to build a carbon-free hydrogen infrastructure that could become self sustaining once it has economies of scale.

almillar

Why do people keep feeding the troll?

Sorry, but he started an interesting discussion!

I'm fine with these concept cars with hydrogen and everything, but they're just so far away from hitting the road. The cars are really clean, yes, and Toyota and Hyundai at least now have cars they can sell you to drive on the road, at a cost.
Except there's no refilling infrastructure, and hydrogen is still massively expensive, in energy and money, to produce. It's almost as if the oil industry is looking for another product that they can sell, since they're missing out on the far-too-cheap electricity.
Look at the problems above. Now look at the problems electric cars have - range, charging time, and perhaps infrastructure, depending on where you live. Those problems are far easier to solve in the short term than those of hydrogen, and indeed, full electric cars are ideal transport for many people right now. The range and infrastructure problems will solve themselves (range will go up slowly, more chargers will be built slowly, and the two things move towards each other).
And before anyone mentions coal power plants, there's more and more renewable energy around. Invest in that!

tberry6686

I don't think that electric cars are the future at all. Think it through. For people in cities it might be possible to supply enough charging points, note MIGHT. In small towns and villages, forget it. Range - currently only Tesla get a remotely acceptable range for many people, but when the battery goes flat it takes far to long to recharge. Cost - the Tesla is ~£60,000 - way out of reach of most people for a car. Electricity supply - How many extra power stations will we need to recharge all these electric cars (not to mention the extra cabling etc required). We are already close to bare bones on the generation side and there seems to be little rush to build much more capacity.

And the big one - Environment. The pollution created making these batteries is huge, the pollution from the powerstations to charge them is huge, the pollution in disposing of the old batteries is huge. They are not environmentally friendly in any shape or form.

So can someone remind me of the point behind electric cars ?

gzoom

^ Do you think refining oil to produce petrol uses no energy?

Look up how much electricity is needed to refine 1 litre of petrol, and than see how far an electric car can travel on that same amount of energy....The answer may surprise you

bigjl

Interesting thread?

He asked if anybody had driven a Toyota Mirai?

What is the chances of somebody on here driving one?

He even managed to mention BMW M cars as usual.

WellKnownSid

gzoom wrote: »

^ Do you think refining oil to produce petrol uses no energy?

Look up how much electricity is needed to refine 1 litre of petrol, and than see how far an electric car can travel on that same amount of energy....The answer may surprise you

You also have to look at the renewable energy mix. Even today - without the benefit of a large Chinese nuclear plant - a UK based EV is as good as a well-performing hybrid, but unlike a hybrid will get better as more renewables go online.

The argument that the grid won't cope overlooks many factors - not least the fact that there is much development on intelligent grids that use the spare power in your EV to sustain the network rather than deplete it. Tesla already have static batteries designed to power homes, so the technology is knocking on the door already.

No doubt there will be a financial incentive - instead of people getting hot under the collar that their smart meter might turn down the hot tub during Corrie, at times of high demand your car will be able to feed some of its power back into the grid. In return, you get a free fill-up next morning.

BeenThroughItAll

bigjl wrote: »

Interesting thread?

He asked if anybody had driven a Toyota Mirai?

What is the chances of somebody on here driving one?

He even managed to mention BMW M cars as usual.

I've driven one at Millbrook in September. Very nice thing. Good looking in the flesh, quiet, well built, quick, comfortable. Visibility isn't brilliant, but most modern cars are like that.

People always go on about how hydrogen stations are rare and they're too expensive to build but they forget you can put a hydrogen pump in a small space. One of the OEM design engineering firms I work with in the North East has built a solar powered hydrogen electrolysis unit which is no bigger than a phone box and completely autonomous.

Let's not forget, building a petrol station also costs more than 500K, and needs a much larger site, deep excavation, etc.

gzoom

BeenThroughItAll wrote: »

Let's not forget, building a petrol station also costs more than 500K, and needs a much larger site, deep excavation, etc.

So why bother with either, and just go for battery EVs

BeenThroughItAll

gzoom wrote: »

So why bother with either, and just go for battery EVs

The basic reason for me is that I often do 350mi trips, and I wouldn't ordinarily stop more than once in a trip like that. When I do stop, I want to be on my way again in 15mins or less. That's not going to happen with battery technology - it simply isn't. Sure, a 50kWh battery pack will take me 200 miles, but charging one to 100% in 15 minutes would need a nominal 200kW supply, and the cost of putting in the infrastructure to provide enough supplies of that power would be significant.

On the other hand, a hydrogen micro-station can be run on solar power, or indeed on a standard grid supply.

bigjl

You could nearly hit your target of 15min stop if your journey had a Tesla Fast Charger and obviously you had a Tesla!