Defining location on PCN

terrywales

I have a PCN from UKCPS with an illegible location. Having written to UKCPS, they tell me that the location was "Harbourside, Bristol". This isn't a road, but a large and poorly defined area of central Bristol that includes public roads, private land and car parks. They have rejected my "appeal" and advised me to pay up or appeal to the IAS (who, I see, require the land on which the car was parked to be identified). Is UKCPS's poor definition (rather like saying the car was parked in Mayfair) good enough? And is the fact that the PCN location is illegible an issue? Any thoughts would be welcome.

pogofish

Don't bank on the actual facts of a ticket/situation working in your favour.

Get stuck-in to the Newbies Sticky at the top of this forum for all the basics you need to challenge this.

Then post back here for more detailed help when you have something together.

hoohoo

The NTD will not be valid for keeper liability. However the IAS will say that they think you were the driver anyway. You should raise this point but not rely on it.

The_Deep

This company appears to have a problem with v.a.t.

If, as they claim, this is contractual charge, it is a fee for parking, and thus vatable. Have they accounted for vat on their paper work?

If not it becomes a breach of contract. No vat is payable but it can only be sufficient to compensate them for losses arising from the breach, i.e., no staff uniforms, N.I. contributions, no electricity, business rates etc., a GPEOL in fact. In many cases this loss amounts to nil.

Ask then for a vat invoice. If they ignore your request, (which they probably will), it is a useful stick with which to beat them if it ever gets to court. You could argue ex turpis causa.

More reading here

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5033796=

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5195437

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5087925=

If you suspect tax evasion go here

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5087925

terrywales

Thanks for all those suggestions. I still don't see how they can push this if they can't (or won't) identify where the vehicle was allegedly parked. As they've already rejected my appeal, should I be appealing to the IAS, or continuing my correspondence with them? The newby info seems to be providing guidance on appealing via POPLA, but seems to be warning us off appealing via IAS. So I'm not sure how to proceed.

The_Deep

You have a choice, appeal or do not, If you do appeal and Skippy the Kangeroo decides against you, it is virtually certain that he will not wish a judge to see his anonymous, partial, and flawed verdict. If you do not appeal he still has to face the v.a.t. problem, the contract problem, and any other awkward stuff you have raised to get a judge to award him a penny.


AFAIAA, it is most unlikely that any IPC member would take a parker who has a good defence to court.

Guys_Dad

I would appeal to the IAS stating that the area defined includes public roads that are not covered by any PPC contract. Include a Google Earth Map - and your comparison to Mayfair.

Point out that should the IAS decide that the area defined on the NtK does come under the UKCPS contract, then you look forward to exposing their complete bias in any court case that may ensue.

Then hang on to the reply and use it all as evidence should it ever get to court.

terrywales

Thanks to everyone who responded to my queries. I feel inclined to write to UKCPS telling them that, as they haven't identified where the vehicle was parked, haven't attempted to answer any of the questions I asked them, and haven't shown that there has been any appeal process, then I clearly don't have a contract with them and the matter is closed....

Guys_Dad

terrywales wrote: »

Thanks to everyone who responded to my queries. I feel inclined to write to UKCPS telling them that, as they haven't identified where the vehicle was parked, haven't attempted to answer any of the questions I asked them, and haven't shown that there has been any appeal process, then I clearly don't have a contract with them and the matter is closed....

Bad move. It gives them a 2nd chance to zone in on actual location. And they will ignore your view that the matter is closed.

Just go to IAS as you originally thought.

terrywales

OK, I'll do that. Many thanks.

terrywales

As suggested here, I appealed to IAS. It was interesting because UKCPS put up very little as their "prima facie" evidence, but it included a series of photographs of the "site" (especially interesting as this was what I was asking - where was the car parked?). One photograph was of a marked loading bay on a public road. The other was another stretch of public road nearby. They also put up an aerial photograph of the Harbourside area, which included several public roads but not, strangely, the area where my car was probably parked. They did put up photos of my car, too, but still didn't say where it was parked.

Bristol City Council confirmed that the sites in the photographs were adopted by the Council, and wrote and email to me saying that UKCPS should not be issuing tickets to vehicles parked there. I have at least one photograph showing their ticket on a car on the public road, and have seen them ticket three cars at about 9.30 in the evening.

It took just two hours from submitting my appeal to getting a decision - which rejected the appeal on the grounds of the photos of my car. Strangely though, more than a month later, I have heard nothing more from UKCPS. I imagine they know they're on dodgy ground over the ticketing of cars on the public road, and don't want to push this any further in case it blows up in their faces.

So, if anyone has been ticketed by UKCPS in Canons Way, Bristol, contact the City Council for clarification over whether it should have happened. Another private company operates on the other side of the road - I have no idea whether they are at it too.

Thanks to everyone who helped me sort this out.