Should we get outline planning permission on our Dutch (Hay) Barn?

FourHorsemen

We are going to retire and want to sell our 3 bed house, which we bought 20 years ago. We also have a 'Dutch Barn' with bricked in front up to 4ft and cladding around the rest of it, this is on an agricultural yard next to our garden. It was built as a hay barn with iron supports around 1930. About 10 years before we bought it, a previous owner of the house bought the barn and yard and started using it to repair tractors etc. So it has 2 inspections pits in it. Apparently the Council were told about the repair business and put an enforcement notice on it as there was no p.p. to change it's use. I have no idea when it stopped being used as a hay barn, probably 40 years ago. The previous owner tried twice to convert the barn to a bungalow for elderly parents, but was turned down - he wanted to keep the footprint but swing it around 90 degrees, so they wouldn't let him. We use it to store the mowers and bicycles etc and repair our own cars. It is Green Belt and AONB. Now that we want to sell, we would like to maximise what we can get for it. [OK I know we are very lucky, but we've both worked hard since 16 to get where we are now.]
We live opposite 3 'converted' barns, none of their original structure remains but these were all classed as conversions. Permission has also now been granted for stables across the road to be 'converted' to a house last year. So:
1. Considering the approval of 4 'converted' barns opposite, would we now have a chance to get outline planning permission to convert our barn, by using the same footprint in the same position. It is a real eyesore as it is painted pale green and the iron is rusting, sheeting flapping in the wind etc.?
2. How much would it cost to get outline planning permission, ie. what is the procedure and outlay?
3. Is it financially worth the effort to get outline pp - we live in SE England where everything is overpriced.
Does anyone else have any experience of this please?

agrinnall

You surely won't be converting a Dutch barn will you? Won't you just be removing the structure and building a new one in it's place? I've no idea whether you'd get PP for this but it doesn't seem to me that it could be treated in the same way as a normal barn conversion.

eddddy

Many local authority planning departments will give pre-application advice to householders free. Check your council's website - some let you book a slot, others just let you turn up at certain times.

Other councils might insist you write a letter and make a smallish charge for their reply.

Either way - provide photos of your barn and the converted barns opposite, and a map etc.


If the planner sounds positive, then you can think about employing an architect to draw up plans etc.

If the planner sounds negative, then you have to decide whether to hire a planning consultant to 'fight' the council.


Also...

Search for the planning consents for the converted barns opposite on the council website, and look at the docs to see the Architects/Planning Consultants - and phone them. They will know what 'planning consent' hoops they had to jump through, and would probably do the same again if you instruct them.

G_M

From my council:

You could either meet with the Planners for a

Pre-application process:

Drop-in service
Please be advised that the Duty Planner drop-in service is no longer available. Advice relating to specific sites is offered by the pre-application service:
* J: householder development: £100 (written response) or £160 (for a meeting)

---

Outline Planning Permission:

Applications for outline planning permission seek to establish whether the scale and nature of a proposed development would be acceptable to the local planning authority, before a fully detailed proposal is put forward.

Find out more about Outline planning consent [PDF]


Planning Applications: Fees:

All outline applications

• Sites up to and including 2.5 hectares, £385 per 0.1 hectare
• For each 0.1 in excess of 2.5 hectares, £9,527 + £115 up to a maximum of £125,000

Full Planning Application :



* New dwellings (up to and including 50 dwellings), £385 per dwelling (plus of course any costs for drawing up the plans!)

FourHorsemen

The three structures that were classed as 'conversions' on their planning permissions, opposite us were:
1. A milking shed - steel frame with asbestos cladding, now a three bed tile and brick house. We saw this being dismantled right down to the ground and the house being erected on a clean site. I wish we'd taken photos.
2. A wooden shed, now a 3 bed bungalow with clad breeze block sides and tiled roof.
3. An old wooden barn - admittedly although the sides are brick it does retain some of the struts in the old
roof.
The stables that have been permitted to be 'converted' by our council are presently single layer breeze block with flat roof, to become single storey 3 bed brick and tile house. We can't imagine anything will be left of the original stables when it is converted to a house as it's falling down now.

We did actually query the term conversion when there was literally nothing left of the milking shed in the new building, but the Council said the building inspector had approved it and they would not take the matter any further.
I presume outline planning permission would mean it could be a replacement building though, point taken.

FourHorsemen

Thanks G_M Our council has no duty officer either, presumably the cuts have meant he won't be replaced.

I have no idea what a hectare is, I must measure up and Google it!

eddddy

It sounds like you may be bogging yourself down in the wrong type of detail.

The precise construction method won't impact a planning decision (although the final visual appearance would).

The planners will be more interested in things like whether the new dwelling is in line with the Local Plan (which details planning policy) and whether it's practical (e.g. access etc).


So a planning consultant's role might include arguing why it's in line with the Local PLan, when the council are saying it isn't.

FourHorsemen

So I take it we have to find a planning consultant? Is there a recommended list as the two that did the applications over the road don't seem to be around any more. We have also decided to get in some estate agents to give us a valuation with or without p.p. for the whole site next week, so we can see if it is worth all the
hassle to get outline pp. Thanks for all your input guys. Will let you know later.

Ms_Chocaholic

Although not dissimilar, it might be worth reading this thread
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5331711

Post 27 might be of particular interest in terms of valuation.

Davesnave

The rules regarding conversion of barns to dwellings were relaxed a couple of years ago, but while the government were keen to see more of this, they didn't manage to get all the local authorities on-board.

So far as I understand it, the situation has been something of a postcode lottery, with some councils allowing the conversion of structures like old Atcost barns, which I've seen advertised at prices up to £500k. Other councils are resisting this sort of thing, so it might take a court case or two to resolve what should now be allowed.

I know the amended rules allow for substantial alteration and re-building.

I've only made a mental note of this because we have a 60' barn which might one day qualify for conversion, but as we imagine that day is some way off, I haven't looked at the legislation, just reports about it on the Internet.

http://planningguidance.planningportal.gov.uk/blog/guidance/when-is-permission-required/what-are-permitted-development-rights/permitted-development-rights-for-the-change-of-use-of-agricultural-buildings/


EDIT: Different rules apply to proposed conversions in conservation areas and ANOB. I believe full planning permission must be sought in those areas.

FourHorsemen

Dear Davesnave, thanks for your advice. It looks like we would need a full application in AONB as you say. We'll probably see what the three agents say when they come to give us a valuation on the place. I have been pre-warned about the agents being in cahoots with developers to offer your place at a knock-down price to get a fat back-hander from their developer friends. Might think about online seller sites first, see what bites!
Thanks everyone.