[Urgent] Draft letters check and advice on appeal method

CIIP

Hi everyone, I received a letter from Parking Collection Service on the 6th of September 2015 regarding a PCN issued by Parking Ticketing Ltd on 6th of August 2015. The letter is basically asking for £120 within the next 28 days from the 6th of September 2015.

After reading the Newbies thread and some other relevant threads, I have "combined" several templates and would like you guys to check if they are okay.

The main reason of this thread is to seek for advice on the method of appealing. Newbies thread suggests that I should use the online appeal page as a keeper but not the driver. However, the online appeal page (http:// ptlappeals.co.uk / parking-ticket-appeal) asks me to choose one of the two options: "I am the keeper and was driving the vehicle" or "I am not the keeper but was driving the vehicle". Neither options let me to state that I am keeper but not driver. Should I post the letter instead (track and signed for)?

Here is the draft letter to Parking Collection Service:

Dear Sir or Madam,

The charge by PARKING TICKETING LTD is disputed. I, as the owner of the vehicle, hereby to deny any debt to PARKING TICKETING LTD.

Please refer this matter back to your client and do not contact me again. Further correspondence from you will be considered harassment, and I will complaints will be made to the appropriate organisation such as the Credit Service Association and the Financial Ombudsman.

Yours faithfully,

Here is the draft letter to Parking Ticketing Ltd:

Dear Sir or Madam,

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:

a) The sum is disproportionate, does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term.
b) The sum is extravagant and unconscionable and cannot be justified.
c) Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA so there can be no keeper liability.

I refer you to the consequences of Halsey v Milton Keynes General NHS Trust if you refuse to consider an application outside your normal deadline.

Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I will only appeal further if you offer POPLA, the only independent ADR with a scrutiny panel and trained Assessors. The 'IAS' offered by IPC firms will not be used, for well-documented reasons.

“Drop hands” offer
The charge is baseless but I realise that you may have nominal postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs for responding to your junk mail dressed up to mimic a parking ticket. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed £15 so this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days and I will not pursue you for my costs.

Breach of CCRs
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered nor expressly agreed. This 'contract' is cancelled and any obligations now end.

Please note that there is nothing whatsoever to prevent your company from considering a challenge at any stage. Refusing access to your industry’s alternative dispute resolution procedure would be unreasonable and a breach of the Civil Procedure Rules.

For your information, I have already contacted Parking Collection Services and denied the existence of any debt. They have been told to refer the matter back to you and not to contact me again.

I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,

Thank you very much in advance :beer:

Quentin

CIIP wrote: »

the online appeal page (http:// ptlappeals.co.uk / parking-ticket-appeal) asks me to choose one of the two options: "I am the keeper and was driving the vehicle" or "I am not the keeper but was driving the vehicle". Neither options let me to state that I am keeper but not driver. Should I post the letter instead (track and signed for)?.......

If you cannot progress online without ticking one of those boxes then it looks like you will need to use the post.


Don't use any signed for service when writing, (it allows the recipient to refuse to accept the item, and they can then prove they never received it as it will show as not delivered on the tracking system)


Instead post it in a post office and get a free cert of posting.

ampersand

Quite a bit of careful checking needed with these, op.

First obvious one -
is it really PACKING collection Services? PARKING Collection Services seems more likely.
I ask, because you use the former twice.
#
2nd - a pre-empting instruction, standard on this Forum

NEVER USE RECORDED[[TRACKED] DELIVERY.

Any letter stamped 1st class is deemed delivered within 48hrs.

Civil law works on the balance if probability and this is one area where this applies, going by delivery statistics, accepted in law.

A letter requiring signature can be refused, leaving you without proof of delivery.
Obtain and retain a free Cert. of Posting from any P.O. - guard it carefully with your p/w.

If you must use email, take a printable screenshot for the same purpose.

I prefer a paper trail.
#
Here is the draft letter to Parking Ticketing Ltd:[tweaked]

To Whom It May Concern

The charge by PARKING TICKETING LTD is disputed. As the Registered Keeper of the vehicle, I deny any debt to PARKING TICKETING LTD.

Kindly refer this matter back to your client and do not contact me again.

Further correspondence from you will be considered harassment. Should you persist in this, complaints will be made to all appropriate organisations, initially the Credit Service Association and the Financial Ombudsman.

Yours faithfully,

#
To Whom It May Concern -
Facsimile Invoice no.
[styled Parking Charge Notice]

As registered Keeper of [reg.no] I challenge this unenforceable invoice on these main grounds:

a) The sum is disproportionate, does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term.

b) The sum is extravagant and unconscionable and cannot be justified.

c) Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 so there can be no keeper liability.

[op- nothing about non-compliant signage????]

I refer you to the consequences of Halsey v Milton Keynes General NHS Trust if you refuse to consider an application outside your normal deadline.

Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge.

I will only appeal further if you offer POPLA, the only independent ADR with a scrutiny panel and trained Assessors.

The 'IAS' offered by IPC firms will not be used, for well-documented reasons.

“Drop hands” offer
The charge is baseless but I realise that you may have nominal postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs for responding to your junk mail dressed up to mimic a parking ticket. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed £15 so this is a formal “drop hands” offer.
I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw this spurious charge within 35 days and I will not pursue you for my costs.

Breach of CCRs
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered, nor expressly agreed. Any alleged 'contract' is cancelled and any alleged obligations now end.

Please note that there is nothing whatsoever to prevent your company from considering a challenge at any stage.
Refusing access to your industry’s alternative dispute resolution procedure would be unreasonable and a breach of the Civil Procedure Rules.

The Registered Keeper has already contacted Parking Collection Services and denied the existence of any debt. They have been instructed to refer the matter back to you and not communicate with me again.

Any breach will be classed as harassment and they are aware of this.

I retain proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,
#

I have done no more than tidy and minimally alter things[have to go out now]
Others will bring their wisdom to the party.
c-m might be cross that you're bothering with IAS at all :-)

I'm surprised by your omission of signage - they're never compliant.
I'll check in later.
#
Apologies Q, cross-posted.

Guys_Dad

c) Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA so there can be no keeper liability.

Unless you can indicate exactly why this is, and possibly include a photo as proof, then it is simply a wild, un-provable accusation with no weight whatsoever easily dismissed by the PPC saying "Yes it does"

Please follow Ampersand's advice.

The_Deep

I would take out all of this


I will only appeal further if you offer POPLA, the only independent ADR with a scrutiny panel and trained Assessors.

The 'IAS' offered by IPC firms will not be used, for well-documented reasons.

“Drop hands” offer
The charge is baseless but I realise that you may have nominal postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs for responding to your junk mail dressed up to mimic a parking ticket. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed £15 so this is a formal “drop hands” offer.
I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw this spurious charge within 35 days and I will not pursue you for my costs.

Breach of CCRs
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered, nor expressly agreed. Any alleged 'contract' is cancelled and any alleged obligations now end

They only offer PoPLA, the rest is nonsense

CIIP

Quentin: Thank you for the advice, I have found another post that the OP dealt with PTL through the post as well, I will use the post then.
Thank you Quentin and ampersand for the reminder, did not know that people can refuse to accept items. Will stick with 1st class and proof of posting then.

Guys_Dad wrote: »

c) Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA so there can be no keeper liability.

Unless you can indicate exactly why this is, and possibly include a photo as proof, then it is simply a wild, un-provable accusation with no weight whatsoever easily dismissed by the PPC saying "Yes it does"

Please follow Ampersand's advice.

ampersand wrote: »

c) Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 so there can be no keeper liability.

[op- nothing about non-compliant signage????]

I'm surprised by your omission of signage - they're never compliant.

ampersand: Thank you for the two amended letters, they sound much better than mine. Much appreciated!
Guys Dad: I guess I do not quite understand what point c is trying to say. Copying from your post (Post number: 4816165, sorry cannot include link in here): "The signage at the car park was not compliant with the BPA standards and therefore there was no valid contract between the parking company and the driver."
Should I use this on instead of c?
Does this new point need to be elaborated or keeping it in one sentence is good enough?


The Deep: I actually do not understand what the above paragraphs are referring to or their actual reason to include them. Should I mention that I require POPLA code within 35 days in the letter?


I have modified the letter corrected by ampersand a bit considering all advice above, please let me know if there is anything need to change. Going to post it tomorrow/the day after.

To Whom It May Concern -
Facsimile Invoice no.
[styled Parking Charge Notice]

As registered Keeper of [reg.no] I challenge this unenforceable invoice on these main grounds:

a) The sum is disproportionate, does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term.

b) The sum is extravagant and unconscionable and cannot be justified.

c) The signage at the car park was not compliant with the BPA standards and therefore there was no valid contract between the parking company and the driver.

I refer you to the consequences of Halsey v Milton Keynes General NHS Trust if you refuse to consider an application outside your normal deadline.

Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge.

If I do not receive a clear rejection along with a POPLA code within 35 days of this letter, I will regard the challenge as accepted and the matter closed.

Please note that there is nothing whatsoever to prevent your company from considering a challenge at any stage.
Refusing access to your industry’s alternative dispute resolution procedure would be unreasonable and a breach of the Civil Procedure Rules.

The Registered Keeper has already contacted Parking Collection Services and denied the existence of any debt. They have been instructed to refer the matter back to you and not communicate with me again.

Any breach will be classed as harassment and they are aware of this.

I retain proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,

Thank you guys, please bear with my lousy English (as you might probably noticed, I am not a native speaker.)

Also, would this matter change much if I have already sold the vehicle? (Sold it a week ago, but that was after I received the letter from PCS)

Off topic: "c-m might be cross that you're bothering with IAS at all :-)"
What does c-m mean?

Ralph-y

c-m = coupon mad

coupon mad is one ... if not the best informed on this forum .....

There has been some debate between forum helpers / advisers / grandee's as to the beat way to deal with the IAS who it now seems are just the IPC in another guise ....

The IPC was born / created / spawned after many PPC's became frustrated that appeals where being lost at POPLA

out off the frying pan into the fire ..........

The written advice in the newbies thread is to appeal to the IPC then ignore ...

the reasoning is that to do so is to give some credence to the whole IPC / IAS scam / fraud / debacle

some forum members would like to see appeals to the IAS as it is felt that should it ever come to court then the absurdity / biased nature / corruptness would be shown up.

so at the present time you will have to make up your mind as to which advice you wish to follow .......

It could be a whole lot worse .... if you ever have the experience of two or more solicitors giving advice .... then you would see that this forum is quite reasonably straight forward ....

what ever you choose ...

good luck

Ralph:cool:

Guys_Dad

With the possible demise of genuine pre estimate of loss as a sure fire silver bullet, if you are relying on any failure of wording on signs or written communication on NEW etc, you need to spell out just where the wording is deficient rather than just use a non specific claim.

ampersand

coupon-mad is pretty much Empress, Queen and High Goddess of the mse parking forum :-)


She wrote all the stickies which you are reading and absorbing. You will find her help for hundreds of people on these threads and also on pepipoo, as schoolrunmum.
[I am not disclosing secrets:she has mentioned this herself several times over the years]

The IAS - which you can see on the list of acronyms and abbreviations commonly used here, is a ludircously named 'appeal service' alternative to popla.
Opinions are divided on having anything to do with them as their system is way worse than popla.

It is a pretence of an appeal body, used only by the sleaziest firms. That means those who have been rapped over the knuckles by the BPA[and that takes some doing] and in Court.

Your English is fine - please make no apology :-)

Just make sure that your change of ownership p/w is complete.
Always obtain and retain a certificate of posting for anything official or important.

Before I knew this, I had big problems when important car docs went missing in the post 2 years ago.
#
p.s. i see we've all rushed to tell you about c-m :-)))))))

CIIP

Ralph-y: Let me get this right, so you are saying I can either
1. appeal to the IPC then ignore any responses
2. appeal to the IPC then wait to proceed further
But I thought Parking Ticketing Ltd is a member of BPA, not IPC. Or is this completely wrong?
Thank you for your detailed information on IPC :beer:.

Guys Dad: Thank you for the explanation, I will borrow your detail appeal point in your earlier post then :beer:.
May I ask why the pre estimate of loss is now a possible demise? Are there recent court cases that are against this point?

ampersand: Now I know who is c-m, thank you and Ralph-y too for the short intro lol.


Cheers guys!

The_Deep

The Deep: I actually do not understand what the above paragraphs are referring to or their actual reason to include them. Should I mention that I require POPLA code within 35 days in the letter?

That is the problem with these off the peg appeals, few people who copy word for word from the internet do..

"Drop hands" is a reasonable concept for reasonable people, PPCs are not reasonable, so why include it.

"Breach of CCRs"

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/pdfs/ukpga_20150015_en.pdf

This is recent legislation which allows you to cancel a contract in certain circumstances. Most here do not think that it applies to parking charges. CM takes a different view, and, while her aims are laudable, she tends to overcomplicate matters. Most people who come here could not differentiate between a tort and a tart.


I have always found that, if you do not understand a subject, it is better not to use it as a prong of your argument.