Windows and Lintels - Ventrolla

DaftyDuck

THIS is exactly why I love this website. Several people who obviously knew what they were talking about have effectively stopped the OP having a nightmare situation some months down the line... when the company concerned may well have simply vanished.

Serious :T

I would agree with taking pictures of everything. Don't forget the rubbish in the skip, the vehicles and their numberplates, everything...

Just one minor thought, OP. Do you have Legal Protection along with your house insurance? Hopefully you won't need it, but now is the time to check!

Best of luck, and keep us posted.

Furts

SuzieSue wrote: »

Unbelievable. Unfortunately, I am not surprised.

We must be the only country to have a completely unregulated building trade.

What have the window fitters said?

To an extent it is regulated by the Buildings Regulations, and to a lesser extent by self certification, yet numerous consumers seek to avoid or evade this. Others do not bother to enquire, others are happy to be ignorant. Add to this the legal position of Caveat Emptor and a different scenario emerges.

Yes there are numerous problems with workmanship, but there are numerous problems with the consumers requesting this workmanship. Add in that these consumers will include those working in the building industry and there is only one direction that the industry can go. That is downhill.

The industry cannot be regulated, the Government has tried this and it has failed. The reality was consumers did not care, consumers would not pay for the guarantees and professionalism that came with this, and contractors were mostly not interested in joining the scheme. The latter arose because there was no commercial need to join. Why? Because consumers could not care less about membership. Hence a vicious circle was discovered, or an unvirtuous circle if such a concept can be invented!

The industry also cannot be regulated because the requisite skills are not there to start with.

Add to this contractors are doing vast amounts of work for consumers that would not have been entertained a few decades back - so there is insufficient skilled labour to supply the market. The consumer must accept some blame for this.

I feel sorry for Clairebare, and I did suggest the solution to her problems, and offer genuine professional guidance. The flip side to this is Clairebare and her husband appear to have entered into this situation without doing any simple, common sense, due diligence. Yes professional help is now on board but this should have been in place before work was conceived. Yes, the window company are to blame... but Clairebare and her husband have allowed this sorry situation to occur.

This Forum deserves credit and it has come to Clairebare's rescue. However, consumers should not be relying on well meaning, experienced, construction professionals giving up voluntary time to resolve issues. Consumers need to wise up, and pay up, or there is no likelihood of standards being stablised, let alone improved.

Finally the numerous TV building shows have caused enormous problems, but that is another area of discussion!

UKSBD

Chances are there will be something in the small print that says they are just responsible for supplying and fitting the windows, but preparations and ensuring lintels are ok is down to the OP.


Whether this small print means anything though is another matter.

SuzieSue

Furts wrote: »

To an extent it is regulated by the Buildings Regulations, and to a lesser extent by self certification, yet numerous consumers seek to avoid or evade this. Others do not bother to enquire, others are happy to be ignorant. Add to this the legal position of Caveat Emptor and a different scenario emerges.

Yes there are numerous problems with workmanship, but there are numerous problems with the consumers requesting this workmanship. Add in that these consumers will include those working in the building industry and there is only one direction that the industry can go. That is downhill.

The industry cannot be regulated, the Government has tried this and it has failed. The reality was consumers did not care, consumers would not pay for the guarantees and professionalism that came with this, and contractors were mostly not interested in joining the scheme. The latter arose because there was no commercial need to join. Why? Because consumers could not care less about membership. Hence a vicious circle was discovered, or an unvirtuous circle if such a concept can be invented!

The industry also cannot be regulated because the requisite skills are not there to start with.

Add to this contractors are doing vast amounts of work for consumers that would not have been entertained a few decades back - so there is insufficient skilled labour to supply the market. The consumer must accept some blame for this.

I feel sorry for Clairebare, and I did suggest the solution to her problems, and offer genuine professional guidance. The flip side to this is Clairebare and her husband appear to have entered into this situation without doing any simple, common sense, due diligence. Yes professional help is now on board but this should have been in place before work was conceived. Yes, the window company are to blame... but Clairebare and her husband have allowed this sorry situation to occur.

This Forum deserves credit and it has come to Clairebare's rescue. However, consumers should not be relying on well meaning, experienced, construction professionals giving up voluntary time to resolve issues. Consumers need to wise up, and pay up, or there is no likelihood of standards being stablised, let alone improved.

Finally the numerous TV building shows have caused enormous problems, but that is another area of discussion!

I agree with a lot of what you say, but most consumers do care otherwise sites like Checkatrade and MyBuilder wouldn't exist. They are filling the gap because the Government can't or won't regulate the industry.

I think people need to realise that if their house was built before around 1950, they need specialist advice before they do any renovations. But, as you say, as a country we do not have the relevant skills, so who knows if there any any specialists left.

I have never understood why anyone would want to buy a very old house, but many people do and I do not think many of them realise what they are taking on.

Clairebare1

Why do I feel like I am going to have to defend myself here? The lintels were absolutely fine, until they chopped them out!?!
I couldn't have asked any more than I asked and made to feel like a fool for doing so.
Money is not the problem, we have not tried to save and scrimp - we have had 20 windows fitted with this company!?! They have been trading for 30 years and you trust what they are saying and doing.
I would like to apologise now for having taken up people's time In this matter which I know absolutely nothing about. ;-(

SuzieSue

Clairebare1 wrote: »

Why do I feel like I am going to have to defend myself here? The lintels were absolutely fine, until they chopped them out!?!
I couldn't have asked any more than I asked and made to feel like a fool for doing so.
Money is not the problem, we have not tried to save and scrimp - we have had 20 windows fitted with this company!?! They have been trading for 30 years and you trust what they are saying and doing.
I would like to apologise now for having taken up people's time In this matter which I know absolutely nothing about. ;-(

I don't think that you have done anything wrong. In fact, you had the intelligence to question what they were doing and I doubt that many others (including myself) would have realised that they were doing anything wrong like you did.

As I said below, if anything is to blame, it is the lack of regulation, not you.

Furts

SuzieSue wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what you say, but most consumers do care otherwise sites like Checkatrade and MyBuilder wouldn't exist. They are filling the gap because the Government can't or won't regulate the industry.

I think people need to realise that if their house was built before around 1950, they need specialist advice before they do any renovations. But, as you say, as a country we do not have the relevant skills, so who knows if there any any specialists left.

I have never understood why anyone would want to buy a very old house, but many people do and I do not think many of them realise what they are taking on.

At least you have not shot me down for voicing my opinions and I give you credit for this.

I beg to differ on your stance. Most consumers do not care, but this is because they do not know how to care. Further those that do care do not know what to care about. Ultimately the problems and solutions lie with consumers. If they demand higher standards then this will happen. This is no different to the countless UK manufacturing concerns that fell by the wayside because the consumer did wise up - British Leyland being a good example.

Most consumers only start caring when things go wrong. Until then they are happy in their laziness, or ignorance. Then when things go wrong they do not look in the mirror - it is a case of who shall we blame and where can we get a quick fix, cheap, method of rectifying matters.

Checkatrade and MyBuilder exist but not for the reason you suggest. They exist to make money, and as a by product of this they offer a dubious service to consumers. The Government cannot compete with this. There would be an outcry if it tried to make big profits from setting up such schemes. Further, the Government would be obliged to vet, regulate, and a host of other mechanisms including no doubt the Freedom Of Information Act. None of this applies with the sites you quote.

Ultimately if the Government were to regulate it would start with the new home building industry. From land purchase, land banks, cartels and... it goes on and on. Hell will freeze over before this happens. I accept this, but consumers should also accept this and wise up.

Think of poor Clairebare. I asked who she had let into her house to fit the windows. The reply was she had no idea. So these men could have been bank robbers, money launderers...who knows?

When the men arrived at Clairebare's home did she do an Induction? Along the lines of where are your qualification papers? What training do you have? Are you trained in health and safety? Access is allowed here and forbidden there. Toilet facilities are located there. Hand washing, soap and hot water are there. Hot food and kettle facilities are there. First Aid is by whom, and the box is located where? The nearest hospital is located at and directions are...You get the idea, but many consumers have no idea on their obligations as fellow human beings.

Furts

Clairebare1 wrote: »

Why do I feel like I am going to have to defend myself here? The lintels were absolutely fine, until they chopped them out!?!
I couldn't have asked any more than I asked and made to feel like a fool for doing so.
Money is not the problem, we have not tried to save and scrimp - we have had 20 windows fitted with this company!?! They have been trading for 30 years and you trust what they are saying and doing.
I would like to apologise now for having taken up people's time In this matter which I know absolutely nothing about. ;-(

Nobody is trying to make a fool of you, and the lintels were fine until they were chopped out. You have sought guidance which has been forthcoming. I and others have helped steer you down a path which will, hopefully, lead to a satisfactory outcome.

The crux is that you sought the guidance far too late. It is an unfortunate truth that this situation need never to have occurred. There is good Web, Forum, and low cost professional advice available which would have prevented, or alleviated your scenario.

Ponder over this for a moment. If you were to consider your fellow human beings would you want them to go through your scenario? I suspect that the answer is no. If this is the case do you feel that you have a duty to name the window company?

Clairebare1

Am I allowed to name the company, or would I get in trouble for doing that?

SuzieSue

Furts wrote: »

When the men arrived at Clairebare's home did she do an Induction? Along the lines of where are your qualification papers? What training do you have? Are you trained in health and safety? Access is allowed here and forbidden there. Toilet facilities are located there. Hand washing, soap and hot water are there. Hot food and kettle facilities are there. First Aid is by whom, and the box is located where? The nearest hospital is located at and directions are...You get the idea, but many consumers have no idea on their obligations as fellow human beings.

But there is no point in her asking for qualification papers because even if they had any they wouldn't specify if they were qualified to deal with an 150 year old house because the industry is not regulated.

I realised that the NHBC guarantee was worthless when I bought my new build (which I still live in) 20 years ago and at that time I took out an insurance policy in case there was something fundamentally wrong with the house as it is pot luck if the site manager knows what he is doing. I don't think such a policy exists anymore probably because no-one would underwrite it because of the poor build quality of new houses.

I am currently looking for a builder to do a garage conversion and I don't know how to find someone with the right skills as all I have to go on is Checkatrade which is only slightly better than useless. Even being a member of the FMB doesn't mean much as they don't check the quality of work done.